Posted by Bill Randles on December 1, 2018
"As my readers know, I have been involved in the ongoing debate concerning certain statements made by David Nathan which I and many others consider to be heretical. I have tried to help clear up any misunderstandings wherever I felt I could, as well as attempting to be fair and give the benefit of the doubt wherever possible.
Contrary to the opinions of a good many I have always maintained that I do not agree with the way people are being spoken of and treated in this debate by Jacob and certain Moriel reps. I have just tried to avoid going there, seeing the doctrinal issues of primary concern. Everyone knows that public relations aren’t Moriel’s strong point, but this goes too far.
However As this debate has shifted into a discussion of the Motives and actions of Stewart and Debbie Menelaws, I am forced to have to distance myself. I cannot stand by as they are portrayed as greedy, self serving, and even heretical,
I have always maintained that Stewart’s interview with David was inadequate, failing to ask the specific questions that would have either allowed David to clear up the concerns raised or would have forced him to be specific in what he believes.
But I have attributed to Stewart the best of motives in it knowing him to be a peace loving brother trying to help a bad situation.
Even when Stewart posted the small excerpt from the Q/A at my church, but didn’t include the previous segment of teaching by David which we all objected to, I didn’t and do not attribute dishonesty to Stewart in that. God alone knows the secrets of men’s hearts.
This has been a painful situation to the body of Christ, a tragedy!
I simply have to draw the line when the Menelaws are portrayed by a cheap shot cut and paste of a picture surrounded by hundred dollar bills. I am all for debate and discussion, but not character assassination. I know the Menelaws, and have been a guest in their house, they live simply, and seek to promote the gospel.
Furthermore it is unconscionable to post pictures equating the Menelaws with Jim and Tammy and the Crouch’s, they just aren’t in that category.
Many have sought to pressure me to take a side in this debate and have taunted me and challenged me to be even in my input, as if I am some kind of a referee at a prizefight. I am not taking sides, my side is with the Body of Christ, and the cause of truth, I am not a partisan for any other side. My concern has been doctrinal, others can discuss politeness or the lack thereof, God didn’t call me to be the umpire.
But I don’t think the Menelaws merit being represented this way, I think I know them, they, like the rest of us are trying to process this mess in the best way they can and need lots of prayer, as does the body of Christ.
In Jesus name, pas bill randles."
The original Moriel video depicting the Menelaws as money grabbers by surrounding them with dollar bills has been taken down, edited and replaced with no explanation. As always, it is very necessary to expose the evidence of Prasch's duplicity. I have obtained a screenshot of the original from Google Images:
Hi Treena,
ReplyDeleteThere is another you tube video on Jacob praschs channel titled "Leave Me Out of it", it is not nice at all!! pertaining to the ongoing scenario. Very, very sad indeed.
The link to "Leave Me Out Of It" : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNHplOCU6pw
ReplyDeleteThank you Anonymous. Prasch has been teaching false doctrine and has been going on like this for years. He should have been stopped a long time ago.
God bless.
I wasn't going to bother to put my penny's worth in, but I have read elsewhere in more than one place about this ongoing spat. So why not comment here?
ReplyDeleteI hadn't hitherto listened to, or read any of David Nathan's teachings (thank God!) but I must, on this issue (as MUCH as it pains me to do so) take sides with Jacob Prasch.
I know Prasch is absolutely correct regarding the Menelaws, I mean, Nathan's teachings ARE from the pit!
As for this Randles character, I know very little about him. He seems to me to have more of a politicians spirit in him than "earnestly contending for the Faith", if "The Menelaws are my friends" as he seems to proudly assert; is he then saying that anyone promoting Nathan's awful and heretical teachings are also his friends? BTW, Randles can apologize all he wants to regarding the Menelaws naivety, but that cuts no ice with me! I watched a video and heard Mr Menelaws speak; his persona reminds me of a certain Mr Conder!
Randles is in a very, very, very bad place, if this be the case.
God bless.
Why not comment here indeed Colin..
ReplyDeleteI agree that David Nathan's teaching about the blood of Jesus during the millennium was very wrong. Even though he taught it as his "opinion", it went beyond the scriptures and was assertively presented. He has since apologised about HOW he presented it, although I am still not clear whether he still believes in the saving efficacy to the blood of animals during the millennium. I have said elsewhere that serious mistakes have been made by BOLM.
Having said that, Prasch has no room to criticise anyone considering intra-seal and his more recent false teaching about the "Omer". Isn't it equally "heretical" to deny the presence of the Holy Spirit and the gospel during the seventieth week of Daniel?
I must admit that I was pessimistic about Bill Randles to begin with, but I have been pleasantly surprised. He certainly has not condoned David Nathan's teaching - in fact he has challenged it. He has also expressed his concern about the behaviour of Jacob Prasch.
God bless.
Treena,
ReplyDeleteClearly, Nathan's teachings are from the pit, IF, IF, IF, he has said ALL the things attributed to him. I emphasize the IF, because I haven't listened to, or read first hand, his teachings.
It came into my mind earlier to read Randles comments again regarding the Menelaws, but I see that he has pulled his "The Menelaws are my friends" article from his blog, any reason? are they not his friends anymore?
On this thread, can you please explain (if you can!) to me why experts in OT Hebrew & NT Greek would be needed in any forthcoming debate? I cannot for the life of me understand why this would be at all necessary. Do we not have reliable translations? As we know, many Hebrew and Greek 'scholars' are way off the radar in their theology. Who would decide who 'won'? the whole sorry saga is beyond words.
You well know my thoughts on Prasch's eschatology, and certainly Prasch's behaviour is well "beyond the pale" and what little respect I had for him has all but vanished.
God bless.
ReplyDeleteIf you listen to nothing else Colin, I do recommend that you listen to David Nathan's video:
Addressing BOLM in Regards to Jacob Prasch's Video's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2TnH52Rmu0
This certainly puts pay to the accusations brought against him by this John Cambridge/Neville character. What remains, as far as I am concerned, is the reason that his false teaching about the clothing was up on YouTube this year. The question about the blood of Jesus is important. I have wondered myself why there will be animal sacrifices in the millennium.. however this is a question that I would not try to answer. This was David Nathan's error as I am sure he realises now. As DN points out on his vid, Prasch seized the opportunity to take the blood of Jesus issue from the context of the millennium to another level completely. After watching this video I was very moved. I am unable to condemn David Nathan as a "heretic" in the way that Prasch has portrayed him to be.
We (my friend Pat and I) are also wondering why Bill Randles has pulled 'The Menelaws are my Friends' post from his blog. We are quite upset about it actually. We are also upset that no one is addressing Prasch's recent false teaching regarding 'The Omer','The Ten and the Forty'.. and in fact intra-seal in general. Isn't the denial of the Holy Spirit during the 70th week heresy?
Why Prasch would want language experts present at a future debate is beyond me. It seems to be part of his intimidation tactic. I have only ever seen Prasch in one debate a long time ago and he did not put two words together cohesively. He issues these debate invitations often, but when it comes to it they never seem to happen!
Both Prasch's eschatology and his behaviour are beyond the pale Colin.
I completely agree.
God bless.
Here is your answer Colin:
ReplyDeleteWilliam Randles "The Menelaws are my friends, and I have a lot of friends, but I had a specific reason for proclaiming my friendship with them in particular, because I thought they were being abised (abused) by Jacob's rhetoric. I am so sic of the whole swirl of rhetoric around these recent issues, I just want to get away from the whole subject. Even Debbie's Rhetoric has been over the top in some cases and I want to get away from it all."
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100009370648530
Colin, you say "I know Prasch is absolutely correct regarding the Menelaws"...
ReplyDeleteAre you SERIOUS? Tell us ONE thing that Prasch said that is correct regarding them. Just one.
The carnal desires of vile gossip mongers are beyond belief and if you do not wish to be counted in that number, please back up your accusation because God HATES slander.
Meanwhile, there is an excellent response to Prasch at
https://vimeo.com/300469014?ref=em-share.
Unknown,
ReplyDeleteI STAND BY WHAT I SAID (italics).
I said what I said, because IF Nathan was teaching heresy (and I believe that he was/is), then IF the Menelaws were/are promoting a heretical teacher, then Prasch WAS correct regarding the Menelaws. Would you call a teacher of heresies your friend, or even one who promotes said teaching?
Treena, as for the millennial animal sacrifices, briefly, I have never had any difficulty with the concept, for "it is written". Just as they pointed forward TO the coming Saviour in their Old Testament types; in the millennium they will point BACK to what He accomplished on the cross. The animal sacrifices will be purely memorial and ceremonial to teach those born in the millennial reign, not those who have risen in the first resurrection. Yet, nevertheless, despite all this, men will still be led away by the great deceiver at the end of the millennium; Rev.20:7-9, such is the inveterate unregenerate human heart! We all KNOW that "it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins." Heb. 10:4, although the Dispensatiolists (pre-trib) would have us believe that they did prior to the cross! You can see how this utterly abhorrent theology causes all this present mess? Is Nathan a Dispensationalist?
If time permits, I will listen to that video. BTW, whatever anyone thinks of Nathan, IF he said "the blood of Christ will not profit anyone in the millennium", I think we are all agreed that was an entirely stupid thing to say, heretical even? (IF he said it!). Let us remember, there are those who think there will be no millennium, or that we are NOW in it; what would they make of Nathan's words, IF he said them? I hear the word; HERETIC!!!
Regardless of what Randles says, he shouldn't have taken that posting down re the Menelaws. Now, I believe the aforesaid is a Dispensationalist, so I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a reply regarding Prasch's awful intra-seal theory, or if he insists it is biblical doctrine, heresy even? As for the "Omer,Ten and the Forty"..... Uhhh!
God bless.
I agree that it was unwise of David Nathan to even go there Colin. I think he knows that himself now.. hindsight is a wonderful thing!
ReplyDeleteWilliam Randles did say that he would look into Prasch's false eschatological teachings. I will try to hold him to his word. I hope he will still do so as it is very important that Prasch is exposed. The more recent dross about The Omer and The Ten and the Forty are blatantly false - as is intra-seal - if people would take the time to be Bereans and test the spirits. 1 John 4:1-6.
God bless.
Some might construe that I endorse Prasch/Moriel, just because I agree with what he said regarding the Menelaws, but be ABSOLUTELY assured, I DON'T! The Menelaws didn't deserve the verbal diatribe that Prash spewed out on them, or anyone else for that matter. I really don't know anything about the Menelaws, I would only reiterate that IF they endorse a heretical teacher, then Prasch WAS correct to say what he did, NOT the way he went about it. Now Randles takes his post down; "The Menelaws are my friends", so by implication, Randles is no friend of Prasch! What a mess this sorry lot of 'theologians' have made for themselves, will anyone come out of it for the better?
ReplyDeleteWhen writing in a hurry, it is easy to make typos. On the above post, the last line should read "...or if as he (Prasch) insists it is, biblical doctrine.."
What Nathan said regarding the blood of the Lamb was certainly more than an unguarded statement, when I consider all that has ensued from it!
God bless.
I viewed Nathan's video in stages over the last 2 days. Time is a precious commodity; who really wants to heap precious time and effort into all this? It would have been more helpful if Nathan heavily edited his sermon, for most matters are generally decided on one or two pivotal points. We are agreed that he was in great error to say what he did about the efficacy of the blood of Christ in the millennium. He gave his adversary much ammunition. Moriel/Prasch and CMFI have put together a kangaroo court judgment against him.
ReplyDeleteAgain, words fail me in regards to Prasch - what a charlatan he is!
After watching this BOLM production, and knowing that they are calling each other "liars", I really see no hope for any reconciliation.
Randles has shown himself to be utterly disingenuous. Earlier, in this whole debacle, he was "friends of the Menelaws", then he pulls that article down; what message does that send? I looked on Randles blog earlier; it appears Prasch and Randles are back in bed again! Randles has now backpedalled, and has made an "apologetic retraction"! and regrets ever getting involved - he says as much. A commentator on Randles blog is correct when he asserts that the vitriol and abusive language emanated from Prasch/Moriel, yet Randles said it came from both camps! No doubt, there was some rhetoric from Nathan/Menelaws, (you would understand that, they are not robots!) but certainly NOTHING compared to what Prasch dished out. BTW, I won't go on Facebook, so I don't know what exactly Menelaws said.
After all this, I believe Randles and his acolytes will put up and shut up regarding Prasch's false intra-seal teaching and others, don't you? I hardly think Randles wants to start accusing Prasch as being a false teacher! Who knows, he may even warm to intra-seal, and the Ten Forty!
I say AVOID all three; Randles, Prasch & Nathan!
BTW, BOLM are adjacent to Moriel at the top of BIG's link page! how can this be?
God bless.
Things have progressed somewhat Colin. You may want to see the video I have just posted by 'Catalyst'. Prasch has managed to upset and alienate a number of people with his terrible abuse - he has dragged all sorts of people into it. Graham Baldwin 'Catalyst' doubts whether Prasch is even a believer..this is something that I have suspected for a long time.
ReplyDeleteThe emails on BOLM website also make interesting reading.. the link is on my previous post 'Debate Cancelled..".
Things have obviously been happening behind the scenes and Bill Randles has been in a very difficult position being friends of all the parties involved. He has said that he wants to keep out of it and I don't blame him. I hope he will still give his attention to intra-seal though.
God bless.
I pretty much agree with Colin although I’m not going to avoid Bill Randles for now. This whole affair is basically two dodgy teachers having a go at one another. They both have taught things I consider false. In the video Nathan still says people in the millennium will be saved in a different way. Paraphrasing Nathan - They won’t be born again in the way we are - How can this be? The gospel is everlasting. Isn’t Nathan presenting a different Jesus when he says this? A Jesus who will somehow save sinners in the millennium differently? How?
ReplyDeleteOf course none of this entitles Prasch to behave in the way he has. He just keeps proving his heart isn’t right.
I’m not sure how much help Bill Randles will be regarding intra seal. I seem to recall he isn’t sure about this subject to begin with. I could be wrong about that to be honest. My memory isn’t the greatest.
I think David Nathan's speculation about animal sacrifices during the millennium was down to his own human reasoning. I didn't know he was still sticking to it?
ReplyDeleteYou may be right about Bill Randles - he doesn't seem to voice any kind of view about the timing of the rapture. However, as a teacher, he should be able to form a view, and he should be able to discern truth from error.
God bless.
Nathan says in this video , when referring to the millennium, https://youtu.be/c2TnH52Rmu0 "I don't believe people can be born again as we are." It's about 42 minutes in.
ReplyDeleteIn my thinking Nathan doesn't seem to understand that what he is saying is a denial of the everlasting gospel. He plays a clip of Prasch defending that the blood of Christ cleanses from all sin but doesn't seem to grasp that his own belief that people will be saved in a different manner during the 1000 year reign of Christ is a denial that the blood of Christ cleanses from ALL sin. I do not see how anyone can say they believe Christ paid in full the penalty for our sins and therefore we are saved by faith alone in Christ alone as long as we fall on this side of the millennial reign of Christ. The believers to come won’t be born again as we are? Then how will they be saved? Book, Chapter and Verse, please! Are we or are we not born again when we become believers?
If I am wrong about this I am willing to be corrected through the Scriptures but I can’t think of anywhere we are taught this. What is the difference between Nathan and a Roman Catholic believer who subscribes to the divinity of Christ, His virgin birth, His atoning death, resurrection and ascension as we do but then adds something? Mass, scapula, purgatory? Do they not nullify His grace by adding to the gospel? Isn’t this what Nathan is doing? He gives example after example in his video of the truth of Christ’s work but still doesn’t believe that people alive in the millennium will be born again as we are. It doesn’t make sense.
It is probably the most subtle deception I have come across because it doesn’t seem to matter. What difference does it make if this happens after we are all raptured? I say it matters a great deal because Christ is THE TRUTH and he doesn’t change. Ever!
I am just watching 'John Haller, Bill Randles, Ian Huxham & Amos Farrell Respond to David Nathan': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTBziQz3D7o
ReplyDeleteSome good points are made about the blood of Jesus during the millennium and also Jesus' role in creation. I agree that these are important subjects.
I haven't got much time for Amos Farrell due to his John Cambridge stunt. Farrell seems to bend over backwards to support Prasch, who, lets not forget for one moment, is also a very dangerous false teacher.
Why are these men not talking about the serious errors of Jacob Prasch, e.g. his recent teaching in Scotland 'Counting the Omer', his association with ecumenist David Noakes, Clifford Hill and Issachar Ministries, and his various intra-seal false teachings?
God bless.
I haven’t heard of Ian Huxham & Amos Farrell but I’ll watch the video the next chance I get. I don’t know why these learned men aren’t questioning Prasch’s increasing number of errors. Bill Randles backed off quickly. I was a little bothered about his I’m not an umpire comment. It reminded me of Cain’s breathtaking “Am I my brother’s keeper?”
ReplyDeleteI once thought highly of Prasch. It took me a while to get where I couldn’t keep quiet about his doctrine and attitude. Hopefully others will get there too. People who have positions and standing in the church. We can hope and pray.
Ian Huxham is Overseas Co-ordinator of CFMI - http://www.cmfi.org.uk/
ReplyDeleteAmos Farrell is founder of Genesis Christian Radio. Farrell is the man who first posted the John Cambridge documents and then later said that Cambridge's true identity was an "oversight", or words to that effect. He is a staunch supporter of Prasch. He is currently telling Christian to "stop" - although what authority he has to prevent others from expressing their concern is questionable!
https://www.genesischristianradio.com/news-and-information/
Prasch's influence is all over this video.
God bless.