Good Fight Ministries - Not Appointed To Wrath
I haven't tackled the problems associated with the post-trib rapture view in any depth previously. I am in total agreement with Good Fight Ministries that the pre-trib view is highly speculative and dangerous. Pre-trib teachings expose believers to spiritual deception and puts them at serious risk of apostasy - as such pre-trib should be vigorously refuted. (Matthew 24:10). I do not consider that post-trib teaching has anything like the same level of error as pre-trib. However, the difficulties associated with this view are confusing to say the least! (1 Corinthians 14:33). I find it reasonable that savvy pretribulationists and others are unable to accept the post-trib position due to its various scriptural inconsistencies. For the sake of clarity, it must surely be necessary to iron out the difficulties associated with the post-trib view and to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).
1 Thessalonians 4 and 5
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).
Now (δέ) concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3).
The chapter division between 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 is is extremely unhelpful. It is unfortunate that this inappropriate break in the text often adds to the confusion regarding the timing of the rapture. In 1 Thessalonians 5:1, Paul makes the transition from the rapture to the day of the Lord (δέ = but, and, now, (a connective or adversative particle). {1} In other words, the times and seasons that Paul refers to are relevant to the preceding verses regarding those who are caught up (the rapture), but they are also relevant to the day of the Lord (the wrath). It appears that the post-trib camp merge both these events together into a 24 hour single day, but this proposition is inconsistent with the scriptures.
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).
Now (δέ) concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3).
The chapter division between 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 is is extremely unhelpful. It is unfortunate that this inappropriate break in the text often adds to the confusion regarding the timing of the rapture. In 1 Thessalonians 5:1, Paul makes the transition from the rapture to the day of the Lord (δέ = but, and, now, (a connective or adversative particle). {1} In other words, the times and seasons that Paul refers to are relevant to the preceding verses regarding those who are caught up (the rapture), but they are also relevant to the day of the Lord (the wrath). It appears that the post-trib camp merge both these events together into a 24 hour single day, but this proposition is inconsistent with the scriptures.
Joe Schimmel: "The same coming where Jesus comes to destroy the wicked, and he comes like a thief, (Jesus put that at the end of the tribulation Matthew 24).. it is the same day he comes upon the wicked, it is the same day he comes to us.."
Joe is quite hard to follow, but as far as I understand it, he is saying that the rapture happens on the same day as the wrath is poured out upon the wicked, after the great tribulation. (Matthew 24:30-31). The problem with this view is that Matthew 24 does not state that the wrath is initiated quite yet. After the great tribulation is cut short, the cosmic disturbances and the rapture precede the day of the Lord (the wrath of God). The wrath becomes imminent after the seventh seal is broken, before the trumpet judgements are initiated. (Revelation 8:1-2).
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31).
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31).
Further evidence that the rapture takes place before the day of the Lord is found in Revelation 7:9-17. "the great multitude from every nation " appear in heaven in resurrection bodies before the seventh seal is broken. “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. (Revelation 7:14 cf. Matthew 24:29, 31).
Joe goes on to quote:
..and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8).
..and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8).
Paul refers to the Thessalonian church and to himself in the present tense, who are afflicted (θλιβομενοις verb - present passive participle). Clearly, departed saints are not "afflicted" after they go to be with the Lord, and yet there is a real sense that the martyrs in particular are waiting for justice:
They (the departed martyrs) cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
In that sense, the martyrs will get "relief " when the Lord executes his vengeance.
In any event, it is difficult to explain "the coming of the Lord with his saints", if the rapture takes place at the same time as a supposed literal 24 hour day of the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 3:13).
Prewrath and post-trib differ chronologically. According to the scriptures, the rapture precedes the day of the Lord, which makes it a prewrath event. Furthermore, the post-trib claim that this "day" is a literal 24 hour period cannot be correct. Note: days (plural) describes the seventh trumpet call: ..but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. (Revelation 10:7). Furthermore, the scriptures demonstrate that the day of the Lord is at least longer than a five month period of time. (Revelation 9:5). Isaiah 34:8; 61:2 and 63:4 may indicate a year long "day of vengeance" (Edom being symbolic of God's final judgement against the nations. [Isaiah 34:4]).
1. https://biblehub.com/greek/1161.htm
Further Links:
End Times Seminar Session 4 - The Day of the Lord
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Ynrb2qugA&list=PLDS6L4dOrrh2b31rfWbTduK8Dv7LlQNlk&index=5&t=2s
Articles for Posttribulationism to Consider
https://www.alankurschner.com/2017/08/10/articles-for-posttribulationism-to-consider/
Good Fight Ministries Skewed Post-Trib Rapture View
https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/2020/04/good-fight-ministries-skewed-post-trib.html
Very clear that the First Resurrection, Rapture, Day of The Lord, and the Second Advent are all the same. You are confused.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.alankurschner.com/2012/06/03/answering-a-few-posttribulational-questions/
ReplyDeletePlease answer the problems posed by the post-trib view.
God bless.
Give me a specific question you have as to why you think there is any difference. I didn't see anything in the article to refute my statement or did I miss something?
ReplyDeletePlease read my later post and the full discussion I had with GFM. My questions remain unanswered. God bless.
ReplyDeletehttps://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/2020/04/good-fight-ministries-skewed-post-trib.html
Sorry for the delay in answering you. Just send me one question, just one to start.
DeletePlease respond to my previous conversation with GFM.. https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/2020/04/good-fight-ministries-skewed-post-trib.html
ReplyDelete