tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post6841299903948511104..comments2024-03-26T05:23:11.280-07:00Comments on WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: SAM ADAMS INDEPENDENCE BAPTIST CHURCH: MISREPRESENTATION OF THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURETreena Gisbornhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16783721039030779975noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-5286884937512659942018-12-14T00:58:54.782-08:002018-12-14T00:58:54.782-08:00I'm sorry Kelly I do not have any information ...I'm sorry Kelly I do not have any information about the finances of Independence Baptist Church. I suggest you send your question to http://www.independencebaptist.com/questions.html<br />God bless.Treena Gisbornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16783721039030779975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-46822750421932925952018-12-13T12:48:20.987-08:002018-12-13T12:48:20.987-08:00My concern is totally different and has nothing to... <br /> My concern is totally different and has nothing to do with the religious teachings. When I requested a mailing address to send contributions to I was given special instructions to leave the "Pay to the Order" line blank because the church did not have a bank account. This made me suspicious. Is Independence Baptist Church or pastor Sam Adams in trouble with his bank? Is the money going some place I don't expect? Is someone trying to launder money overseas? I do not understand why they would not have some type of bank account to handle contributions. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01258940832663729978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-31343635090623621942018-02-22T12:53:34.818-08:002018-02-22T12:53:34.818-08:00Certainly the early church believed in premillenni...Certainly the early church believed in premillennialism Colin.. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus and others. The first opposition came from the heretic Marcion, and later Origen openly challenged the doctrine. The scriptures are clear enough and should be taken literally (where appropriate) I agree. The testimony of these early church leaders is I believe reliable. God bless. Treena Gisbornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16783721039030779975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-45207835196557480552018-02-22T03:44:50.709-08:002018-02-22T03:44:50.709-08:00I quote from Leon Morris's REVELATION (Tyndale...I quote from Leon Morris's REVELATION (Tyndale New Testament Commentaries) on Revelation 20.1-5.<br /><br />"The angel had a key to the abyss and a great chain." Both are clearly symbolical for there cannot be a key to the abyss nor can a spirit be shackled with a chain.<br /><br />This is the typical exegesis of those who are NOT pre-millennial! If God says "the angel had a key", then he does! Likewise if God says a "great chain" will shackle Satan, then it will! Who are we to argue? Morris goes on to say of the thousand years "we should take this symbolically"! Six times this number is mentioned in this chapter, and we are asked to believe that it doesn't mean what it says!<br />These non literalists also deny the truth of two resurrections, yet further on Morris concedes "It is a strong point of the pre-millennial view that a first resurrection implies a second" (he's right there!).<br />Of the heavenly city in Rev 21.17, Morris says of the 144 cubits (72 yards) "It takes no builder to discern that a wall 1,500 miles high needs a broader base than 72 yards. Clearly the number is symbolical." Well! I say that God could support a city 1500 miles high with a wall the thickness of a cigarette paper!<br /><br />Can we not see the damage that theologians of Morris's school are doing to those who would study unfulfilled Bible prophecy? <br /><br />God bless. <br />colinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07132820921599851331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-35521724406062610872018-02-21T05:45:14.832-08:002018-02-21T05:45:14.832-08:00Thank you Alan. It does take God's grace and s...Thank you Alan. It does take God's grace and some work on our part to understand pre-wrath, but lets hope that Adams gives it some careful consideration. God bless. Treena Gisbornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16783721039030779975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-68423353040553674662018-02-21T05:11:33.141-08:002018-02-21T05:11:33.141-08:00Yes, it is clear that Adams has not taken the time...Yes, it is clear that Adams has not taken the time to learn about prewrath. He uncritically accepts his post-trib presuppositions as givens. He should consider well these critiques of his post-trib view from a prewrath interpretation. <br /><br /><br />Thanks,<br />Alan Kurschner<br />Alanhttp://www.alankurschner.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-7066408084775351712018-02-21T00:01:36.647-08:002018-02-21T00:01:36.647-08:00Thank you Colin. It is a very disappointing respon...Thank you Colin. It is a very disappointing response from “No Pre-trib”. I did have some confidence in them, but it seems their association with Prasch is more important than the truth. Prasch’s reversal of Pentecost and the end of grace for the entirety of the 70th week is VERY serious error. God bless.Treena Gisbornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16783721039030779975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-1339156211440751652018-02-19T13:03:27.579-08:002018-02-19T13:03:27.579-08:00In my last comment; more specifically, I meant tha...In my last comment; more specifically, I meant that Prasch's awful Intra-Seal theory is a thoroughly dishonest theological hotchpotch.<br /><br />I think you are so right about the "old boy network". It is the truth that matters, John 12.43 is very apt. <br />God blesscolinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07132820921599851331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-5912668894827644192018-02-19T07:34:53.294-08:002018-02-19T07:34:53.294-08:00I do respect your post-trib views Colin as I do ot...I do respect your post-trib views Colin as I do others. <br />Considering the battle we are up against with pre-trib, you would think that there would be no "old boy network", but this does seem to be the case. Some would rather hold onto their association with Prasch no matter what error he teaches. (John 12:43). <br />I do feel disappointed, but not surprised.<br />God bless.Treena Gisbornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16783721039030779975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-75758137394953958422018-02-19T06:33:42.285-08:002018-02-19T06:33:42.285-08:00I agree with you regarding 1 Corinthians 13.12, we...I agree with you regarding 1 Corinthians 13.12, we could use that Scripture as an 'honest' cloak to cover many a heretical teaching!<br /><br />As you know, I am staunchly post-trib, and I believe it to be unequivocally and clearly taught in God's word. Nevertheless, I can see why some buy into the classical pre-wrath doctrine as taught by Van Kampen, it is very convincing (having studied it in great depth), though I am NOT persuaded! <br /><br />Has Scott ever read Prasch's "Shadows Of The Beast"? If not, he certainly ought to. He would soon know the dishonest theological hotchpotch that it really is!<br /><br />God bless.colinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07132820921599851331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-72768519659662884902018-02-19T02:50:37.664-08:002018-02-19T02:50:37.664-08:00“No-Pre-Trib” has responded to this post via Mess...“No-Pre-Trib” has responded to this post via Messenger:<br />"In my opinion posttrib, midtrib, prewrath, and intra-seal have more in common than they have different. I'm personally posttrib and think it is unfortunate that this Pastor chose to use such hyperbole against the prewrath position. The way I view future predictive prophecy is the way it was described by Paul in 1 Cor 13:12 "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." What is the practical implication if one is wrong about the timing of the rapture? Pretrib is the only position that leaves believers unprepared to face what is to come and it has the least exegetical Biblical support and therefore it must be opposed. The other 3 views are debatable but I certainly would not castigate a brother like Jacob Prasch over his intra-seal view even though I don't agree with it. I consider him an ally and one with a heart for truth."<br />I think this is an unfortunate response in various ways. To hide behind 1 Corinthians 13:2 is really not appropriate when Matthew 24, the book of Revelation, and many other scriptures give us so much information about end time events. I personally believe that God intended us to study the scriptures so that we should be prepared for MANY false teachers . "No Pre-Trib" (I am assuming that the message was from Scott Pruitt), seem unwilling to discuss the WHOLE debate concerning the rapture and has restricted itself to opposing pre-trib. This is commendable of course, but other false teachers out there have issued their own perversions of the rapture. I speak primarily about Jacob Prasch. We are meant to test the spirits. (1 John 4:1). I wonder why Prasch has so many scriptural errors in his intra-seal theory? Actually when I questioned Prasch closely about his intra-seal theory, I was repeatedly castigated! A little leaven leavens the whole lump. (Galatians 5:9). Do we really NEED another rapture theory out there, or does this muddy the waters and confuse people further? Prasch denies the presence of the Holy Spirit for the entire 70th week of Daniel... I think this is quite important! As far as Sam Adams is concerned... I am surprised that no one from the post-trib camp has taken him to task.Treena Gisbornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16783721039030779975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-69987011194363184572018-02-18T04:36:05.174-08:002018-02-18T04:36:05.174-08:00I'm not "up to speed on Morgan Edwards&qu...I'm not "up to speed on Morgan Edwards" either, and haven't read his book (don't intend to!).<br />I came to believe that the pre-trib rapture is a false teaching via other routes, plus my own study of God's Book. Nevertheless, Macpherson's diligent and no doubt painstaking detective work exposes the fallacy of the pre-trib Dispensational school; that they need to sink to such depths to shore up their precious unbiblical theory! This veritable fact on its own should make believers show pre-trib a clean pair of heels!<br /><br />The PTRC should be renamed the Pre-Trib Revisionist Centre!<br /><br />God bless.<br />colinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07132820921599851331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-62709797247816633872018-02-18T03:49:08.703-08:002018-02-18T03:49:08.703-08:00I have slightly edited my paragraph about Morgan E...I have slightly edited my paragraph about Morgan Edwards to indicate his historicist views and Thomas Ice's total lack of integrity. I wasn't really up to speed on Morgan Edwards, it is a while since I read Dave MacPherson's book, The Rapture Plot. God bless. Treena Gisbornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16783721039030779975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-80258169571531641132018-02-18T01:33:24.205-08:002018-02-18T01:33:24.205-08:00That is a very pertinent comment from Irv, Edwards...That is a very pertinent comment from Irv, Edwards knew nothing of any pre-trib rapture for the scheme wasn't known until circa 1830!<br />The criminal lengths that these hirelings will go to in order to misrepresent people to further their false theories is nothing short of scandalous.<br />But, it just shows that with a little digging, what can be unearthed? Obviously Edward's scheme of prophecy left a lot to be desired, but nevertheless, accrediting to a man what he never said is tantamount to lying. Ice knew exactly what he was doing (he is no fool). <br /><br />How any man can trust him or his cronies on any point after such shocking tactics is beyond me, let alone invite him to preach to their congregations!<br /><br />God blesscolinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07132820921599851331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-53101615096540994532018-02-18T00:41:01.199-08:002018-02-18T00:41:01.199-08:00Thank you Irv. You are very knowledgeable about Mo...Thank you Irv. You are very knowledgeable about Morgan Edwards work. Thomas Ice's revisionist tactics are scandalous! <br />Having studied the pre-wrath rapture position over quite a long period, it does make sense to me. I do hope that readers of this post will give it some serious consideration and study before rejecting it on the presuppositions of Sam Adams. <br />God bless. Treena Gisbornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16783721039030779975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-16036829459043307922018-02-18T00:25:32.795-08:002018-02-18T00:25:32.795-08:00Thanks for your mind-expanding article, Treena, wh... Thanks for your mind-expanding article, Treena, which has upgraded my outlook in various ways. I'm glad you brought up the pretrib hijacking of earlier writers like Morgan Edwards and Pseudo-Ephraem, both of which have been featured in past days on your splendid blog by MacPherson's pen. Edwards is especially interesting because of the way Tommy Ice out-Iced even his own dishonest revisionism of Edwards' 1788 book. <br /> Ice knew he could create a pretrib Edwards by quoting Edwards' statement about Christ returning "about three years and a half before the millennium" by covering up Edwards' historicism which could look at "days" in scripture and think "years" - something we can't avoid seeing on his pages. <br /> (Edwards' two "beasts" of Rev. 13 had already outgrown their allotted time of 1260 days; both the Papacy and the Ottoman Empire were already centuries old when Edwards took up his pen. And Rev. 11's two witnesses had also been in existence awhile and Edwards said "there are no more than about 204 years between now and their death...." - additional evidence that Edwards held to a 1260-YEAR tribulation! How can 204 years fit into 3.5 literal years?)<br /> It's interesting - actually disgusting - that when "Dr." Ice analyzed Edwards' work, he stopping quoting just before Edwards combined his rapture with Matt. 24's posttrib signs including the sun/moon darkening! <br /> MacPherson has shown that Edwards' scheme of a rapture three and a half years before the end of a 1260-YEAR tribulation is hardly a pretrib rapture! (MacPherson's entire piece on Edwards appeared on this blog last August.)<br /> Again, thanks for your enlightening and much needed web presence, Treena. God bless.Irvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07634792243846422285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-87888578738816068572018-02-17T03:38:06.833-08:002018-02-17T03:38:06.833-08:00My view is that it is down to pride Colin. They sh...My view is that it is down to pride Colin. They should be careful though.. revilers will not inherit the Kingdom of God. (Corinthians 6:10; Proverbs 11:2).<br />People who live in glass houses should not throw stones! <br />Good analogy.<br />God bless. Treena Gisbornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16783721039030779975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-41105691281158423742018-02-17T03:13:20.933-08:002018-02-17T03:13:20.933-08:00I just cannot understand for the life of me why in...I just cannot understand for the life of me why intelligent people like Adams and Prasch need to resort to such verbal diatribes? Have they never read 1 Peter 3.8-10, for just one example? We can stress a point of view very forcefully without hitting the boiling point, surely! When the aforesaid rant as they do, I lose all respect for them and their ministries.<br /><br />When I said earlier I was pre-trib by default, it wasn't that I understood its theology (it cannot be understood!) its just that I was surrounded by many who kept saying the Lord could come back before tea-time! Diligent study of God's word proves this not to be the case, certain events have to take place first, most notably the revealing of the "man of sin" himself! As an immature Christian, it seemed right to me that The Lord could come back at anytime, for after all He is God! But His written word doesn't teach this. A crude analogy; A man says to his wife "I will return in exactly one months time, back here at this train station at 6.00pm" they say their loving farewells, the train departs, but the wife sits waiting in the car all the time in case he comes back at any moment! Didn't she believe him?<br /><br />As for the Lord's pre-millennial return, I really cannot understand how a diligent Bible student cannot see that it IS a great biblical truth, and one that we should be very dogmatic about. But then, if people choose to read the works of post/ a millennial theologians and their spiritualising away of the prophetic word, this will no doubt happen.<br /><br />God bless.colinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07132820921599851331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-84683882037152619012018-02-17T02:24:10.367-08:002018-02-17T02:24:10.367-08:00BTW Adams verbal abuse of others makes my refutati...BTW Adams verbal abuse of others makes my refutation of his pre-wrath views look very mild.<br /><br />He must have been taking lessons from Jacob Prasch, the expert reviler!<br /><br />Adams calls one poor man a "theological moron". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCjkwmQuTS4<br />He calls Steven Anderson "a heretic, liar and ignoramus, or all the above". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFk9dtk3J0M<br />He calls hyper Zionists "useful idiots" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bddKdck7-4Treena Gisbornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16783721039030779975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-77232471741342883542018-02-17T01:06:58.651-08:002018-02-17T01:06:58.651-08:00AMEN Colin.
One of the evidences of spiritual ma...AMEN Colin. <br /><br />One of the evidences of spiritual maturity is: "..that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes." (Ephesians 4:14). <br /><br />But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their sensibilities to distinguish good from evil.(Hebrews 5:14).<br /><br />..for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. (1 Corinthians 11:19).<br /><br />God blessTreena Gisbornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16783721039030779975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-67301982499959180522018-02-16T15:55:13.133-08:002018-02-16T15:55:13.133-08:00Treena,
Like you, I also came into the Faith as pr...Treena,<br />Like you, I also came into the Faith as pre-trib, this is the default position nowadays unless we have been raised otherwise? If we have anything to be thankful for dispensational pre-tribism it must surely be that the truth of the pre-millennial Advent of God in Christ was contained therein? The Bible plainly reveals that it is possible to "hold the truth in unrighteousness" Rom 1.18.<br /><br />I think we would all do well to re-read Revelation 20 twice a day, everyday for at least the next week or two, and we may just BELIEVE what God has said!!!<br />God means what He says, and says what He means. Where the plain sense is good sense, it is the right sense.<br /><br />God bless. <br />colinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07132820921599851331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-68557107637815775962018-02-16T14:34:03.737-08:002018-02-16T14:34:03.737-08:00Thank you Colin.
We stand together in our disdain ...Thank you Colin.<br />We stand together in our disdain of ultra dispensational pre-trib theology.<br /><br />My understanding of the pre-wrath rapture view did not come overnight. It was rather a long process before the pieces of the jigsaw began to fit together. I never really did accept pre-trib, even though it was the accepted view in the circles I once moved in. I did not really have a view on the rapture at all up until about ten years ago. I have listened intently to Joe Schimmel's teaching on post-trib in his Revelation Series. As much as I respect Joe Schimmel, I was/am unable to quite correlate the post-trib position. Critically, it is important to recognise that believers will go through the great tribulation and in this respect pre-wrath and post-trib are agreed. I just cannot account for Sam Adams hostility towards pre-wrath. How can it possibly be "worse than pre-trib"?<br /><br />God bless Treena Gisbornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16783721039030779975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-50644771555275940302018-02-16T13:59:23.969-08:002018-02-16T13:59:23.969-08:00Hi Colin,
I agree with your comment about the dam...Hi Colin,<br /><br />I agree with your comment about the damage caused by dispensationalism, no doubt about that.<br /><br />It is true that literal millennialism of many kinds flourished in the last two centuries - I never fully got my head around JW eschatology or SDA eschatology (it is a bit more varied). Yet it is also true that non-literal millennialism includes Catholics and many a spiritually dead reformed church, so historical connections have limited value, and the argument of guilt by association doesn't work either way.<br /><br />Hi Treena,<br /><br />Bearing in mind the recent discussions on this page, I wonder how you define the Wolves in "beware of the wolves".<br /><br />On another note, do you know anything about Knutby in Sweden? The story of the bride of Christ and very strange goings on since around 2002, including some loss of life, jail time, and more. I guess it doesn't get out in English so much but it might.<br /><br />//MikeAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14967650444160576536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-20052910583034537202018-02-16T13:04:27.947-08:002018-02-16T13:04:27.947-08:00Treena,
The fact that a literal millennial reign o...Treena,<br />The fact that a literal millennial reign on Earth by a Christ like figure is held by cults a many is no doubt a major stumbling block causing unbelief in the One TRUE Christ ruling from Mt Zion in a soon coming Day. Also, is it not a fact that within professing Christianity pre-trib dispensational theology has caused untold damage to the "Faith once delivered unto the saints" in this regard? How we've been bombarded with false predictions of His 'any-moment' Coming from many in this deluded camp?<br /><br />The 1 Corinthians 11.19 Scripture you quote, should make us think before we speak? If we know that an object isn't straight, can we name it such? Satan poses as an "angel of light" (2 Cor 11.14) if this be the case (which it is) then should we not be zealous for the truth? We KNOW what the Savior said about the "lukewarm"? What would Phinehas (Numbers 25.7) think of all the compromise and Luke warmness going on in Christendom today for the sake of 'love'? If he were around today, he would be going around thrusting a javelin into practically nearly everyone!<br /><br />Many believers only want to believe what they can understand, (think on this) God's Book is no ordinary book, it is inspired from above! To someone that died in the Faith 1900 years ago, Jesus is Coming very, very "soon"! For such an one entered into eternity, and in that realm a thousand years is but a day! How long has the apostle Paul been in the grave? Not even two days! To the "souls" that are "under the altar" (Rev 6.9-10) even five minutes is TOO long!<br /><br />When eternity arrives (as it very soon will) those that through God's sovereign grace ALONE have put their trust in Him will certainly not "complain to God!" Perish the thought!<br /><br />God bless.<br />colinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07132820921599851331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4103925900569325548.post-20087024791833607002018-02-16T07:12:53.617-08:002018-02-16T07:12:53.617-08:00Hi Treena,
Thanks for your comment. I have looked...Hi Treena,<br /><br />Thanks for your comment. I have looked up a few references and watched one of the Dorgan videos on the millennium to start with. I confess first of all that this prewrath is new to me, and even now I don't have a good grasp of it. Dorgan introduces the subject (millennial views) very well, and makes the same case I am arguing for above regarding how we treat one another with our different views of eschatology when our gospel message is the same.<br /><br />Regarding his views, I started making notes but then I gave up. Clearly we are not on the same page and there are too many differences, even if we both claim to uphold the authority of the Bible. I appreciate that he accepts symbolism as well as literal meanings when appropriate, according to context. I was glad that he used MacArthur videos - he is great! - but of course his interpretation of Revelation based on all the information available from Daniel, Ezekiel, Joel, Revelation etc, is dispensational and I guess quite different to Dorgans, which I suppose is why the video cuts off where it does.<br /><br />I can see that we (you and I) are miles apart in our thinking in eschatology and also the way we interpret scripture. <br /><br />Just to illustrate, not to argue, for me Revelations starts with "soon and near" and ends with "soon, soon and near". I don't consider it legitimate to use other Bible verses to change the meaning from "soon" to something else. The same can be said for interpretation of Genesis where the same technique is used, and then totally undermines the whole Bible not just eschatology. I am of course referring to 2 Pet 3:8-9 (a day as a thousand years) which is greatly misused in my opinion. The reason revelation was given in the first place according to Revelation 1:1 was "The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place." - it is pretty clear and repeated, and was for the Christians alive at that time as well as those like us in the future. If "soon" didn't mean "soon" to the early Christians then they have a right to complain to God!<br /><br />My point is only that the way we understand scripture is different, but we both seek to be faithful to it. <br /><br />//MikeAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14967650444160576536noreply@blogger.com