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Sunday 27 October 2019

FELLOWSHIP BIBLE CHAPEL FALL PROPHECY CONFERENCE Q&A: CHARLES COOPER CONCERNS

2019 10 12 FBC Prophecy Session Five - Cooper, Kurschner, Haller and Clapham
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXJKrPqYIUc


As a prewrath proponent, I had very high hopes of this conference at Fellowship Bible Chapel in Ohio. The speakers were Alan Kurschner, Charles Cooper, Mike Clapham and John Haller. Alan Kurschner is something of a prewrath expert and the go-to person on this subject. I have only recently heard of Charles Cooper and Mike Clapham. Charles Cooper is described as ".. an author, lecturer and church consultant, and is also the founder and director of the Prewrath Resource Institute of Orlando, FL" {1}

I am concentrating this post on Session Five, i.e. the Q&A session at the end of the Prophecy Conference. Sadly, the session was rather badly managed with Cooper dominating the panel discussion with questionable eisegeses and various lapses into extraneous anecdotes. It would have been better to have had more input from the other speakers.

Cooper answered the first question (paraphrased for clarity): "What physical preparations should Christians make for the great tribulation?" Cooper on provisions: "If you only have one cupful of meal in a barrel, God will refill that cup every day.. While " ..nothing will be impossible with God (Luke 1:37), there is no indication in the scriptures that the word of Elijah the prophet for a specific situation in the OT will be applicable to Christians during the great tribulation. (1 Kings 17:14-16; Romans 8:35). Cooper: "The only thing you are going to need is a bible." Cooper went on to say that Christians would need a bible made of a material such as leather or plastic that would not easily be destroyed by water or heat. I do not know that such an item exists. These irrational remarks set the tone for Cooper's further questionable responses during the session.

Cooper completely dismissed the question about the identity of the Restrainer (2 Thessalonians 2:4). (7:45). I do not think that the identity of the Restrainer should be a point of contention, with one proviso. When various teachers insist that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit, there are ramifications. This view forms an important part of the pre-trib argument and it has also been utilised by Jacob Prasch to form part of his flawed intra-seal theory.

Cooper identified the apostasy of 2 Thessalonians 2:3, not to the professing church, but specifically to Israel. (14:00). Cooper: "Professing people cannot commit apostasy." This sounds like the 'once saved always saved' error. Apostate Israel does not make sense within the context of Matthew 24:9-12. In context Jesus spoke about the persecution and martyrdom of his followers. Matthew 24:10. And then (at that time) many will fall away.. Matthew 24:12: ".. the love of most will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved." (Matthew 13:21, 57). Revelation 12:13-14 tells us that the dragon (Satan) will persecute the woman (Israel), that a remnant will flee and will be nourished and protected for 3.5 years in the wilderness i.e. the period of the great tribulation. Zechariah 13:8-9: In the whole land, declares the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive. (cf. Jeremiah 30:7). If one third of the Jews are protected in the wilderness (Petra?), and two thirds perish, then who amongst the Jews are left to apostatize? In any event, how can unconverted Jews apostatize from something they have never believed in?

Cooper stated that the cleansing of the church will occur before the great tribulation! (22:00). When Cooper refers to "the church", he includes the apostate church, which he claims will be drastically reduced prior to the tribulation. However, the scriptures state that apostasy will increase in the last days. (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; Revelation 3:14-22).

Regarding the third temple: I agree with the literal interpretation of the third temple. (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15). Cooper: "If Antichrist takes his seat in a place and desecrates it, it has to be holy because God makes it holy.. When Antichrist takes his seat, he is going to take a seat in a holy place, and the only way it can be holy is that God makes it so."
(33:00).  My problem with this view is that since the third temple is not divinely sanctified, then how can it be holy prior to the point when the Antichrist takes his seat there? From what I gather, the third temple will be ecumenical.. is this not a desecration, and is not the Dome of the Rock a desecration of the Temple Mount? The glory of the LORD came on Solomon's temple. (2 Chronicles 5:13-14 cf. Exodus 40:35; Zechariah 8:3). A principal theme in the book of Ezekiel is the departure and eventual return of God's glory to Jerusalem. Stephen proclaimed the truth that God no longer dwells in temples made with hands (Acts 7:48). Coopers statements are very confusing on this subject.

Regarding Jesus' return with the armies of heaven (Revelation 19:14-15) Cooper: "I am not convinced at all that the bride accompanies Him at that event.. I think the bride comes down in the New Jerusalem.. I don't think she descends with Him coming to do battle.." Cooper does not recognise the relevance of the "bride to armies" metaphors. (46:00).

There are problems with this view:

After the rapture, the glorified saints will always be with the Lord:

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. (Revelation 19:14). This verse follows the description of the Bride in Revelation 19:8: ..it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. 

Cambridge Bible: "fine linen, white and clean] The dress of Angels in St Matthew 28:3 and parallels, Acts 1:10; but of Saints in this Book, Revelation 3:4, Revelation 7:9, and probably Revelation 4:4 : compare the almost exactly similar words of Revelation 19:8." {2}

The "bride to armies" metaphors are not inexplicable actually - the bride is often referred to in terms of an army as per the following examples:

Ephesians 6:10-17 - ..put on the full armour of God..
Romans 13:12 - So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armour of light.
2 Corinthians 10:4 - For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.

1 Timothy 6:12 - Fight the good fight of the faith..  

I won't go into Cooper's opinions about the mark of the beast. (48:30). However, Mike Clapham made an interesting observation earlier on in the session about the apostasy of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (10:30) i.e. that kai (and) links the man of lawlessness with the apostasy: For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.. I agree that there is a connection between the apostasy and the man of lawlessness, but unless I am mistaken, the scriptures indicate that the mark of the beast occurs later than the mid point of the 70th week. The message of the third angel of Revelation 14:6-9 warns people of the consequences of worshipping the beast and its image and receiving the mark. This indicates that the mark is not yet compulsory? The time line indicates that prior to the third angels warning, the false prophet deceives those who dwell on the earth by performing great signs. After the people are deceived by the signs, the false prophet instructs them to make an image for the beast. The third element, the mark i.e. the name of the beast or the number of its name, appears to coincide with the image of the beast. It is unlikely that the angels proclamation of the gospel worldwide, and the third angels dire warnings about worshipping the beast and its image, and taking the mark are made ex post facto. I have gone into this scenario more thoroughly elsewhere and I have inserted two links at the end of this post.

During the prayer at the end of the session, Cooper decided to rebuke cancer in a woman's liver (I gather that it was a woman attending the conference). He went on to rebuke Satan himself and commanded the cancer to withdraw. (1:22). I do not doubt that the Lord heals, but I have seen too much of this sort of thing in the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches and I have become jaded by all the drama. (Jude 1:9).

I am rather troubled by the sloppy interpretations of Charles Cooper. I associate faulty eisegeses on this level with charismania. My concern is that others will also pick up on these problems and that the prewrath position will be impeded. Prewrath has hitherto been blessed with careful exegeses from Robert Van Kampen, Marvin Rosenthal, Alan Kurschner and others.

1. https://www.alankurschner.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Prewrath-Conference-2019.pdf
2. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/19-14.htm

The Mark Of The Beast:
https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/2019/01/the-mark-of-beast.html
https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/2019/02/the-mark-of-beast-two-witnesses.html

14 comments:

  1. I am NOT at all keen on ANY theology that has been tainted by Dispensationalism in any form whatsoever, and that includes pre-wrath, for the Scriptures clearly and unequivocally teach that the Second Coming and the rapture (so-called) are one and the self same event. This is a belief held by the apostolic Church until circa 1830 when a new teaching came upon the scene. Pre-wrath is undeniably an offshoot of Darbyism, but, nevertheless a whole lot better than pre-tribulationism-this much is true!

    I believe that once saved always saved to be a doctrine CLEARLY taught in Scripture. God has His elect people, let us NEVER forget this. False professors cannot "commit apostasy" for they were not His to begin with.

    Furthermore I am not at all impressed with much of what Cooper says, nor his charismatic inclinations either!
    Are not Cooper and Kurschner involved in the same website? Perhaps Kurschner prefers Cooper to do all the talking because he is the better orator?

    Regarding "the woman" this "woman" does not only consist of the BELIEVING remnant of Israel, but of the much bigger Gentile church also!
    God bless.

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  2. In the context of Revelation 12:13-14 - the "woman" refers to Israel. Of course I agree that the church is the symbol of a woman, and also mystery Babylon is a woman. (Revelation 17).

    As you know Colin I do not agree with Calvinism. False professors cannot apostatize from something they never believed in. I am writing something on "once saved always saved" and will post it at some point.

    The prewrath view may have been a reaction to the pre-trib view.. I am not sure.

    I suggest you read Alan Kurschner:
    Articles for Posttribulationalism to Consider - https://www.alankurschner.com/2017/08/10/articles-for-posttribulationism-to-consider/

    God bless.

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  3. I am not sure how closely Alan Kurschner is involved with Charles Cooper Colin. prewrathrapture.com is run by Cooper as I remember, although I believe it has some input from Alan Kurschner. My web protection has blocked prewrathrapture.com as it is "suspicious".
    I hope they are not too closely associated.
    God bless.

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    Replies
    1. Hi Treena I tried to get on to Coopers website as well. My anti virus program would not allow it so maybe its compromised?

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  4. Wow rebuking cancer. Hyper Charismania hits FBC. That church for sure needs to be avoided.The Bible does not give Christians the authority to rebuke the devil, but to resist him. James 4:7 says to "submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." Zechariah 3:2 tells us that it is the Lord who rebukes Satan. Even Michael, one of the most powerful of the angels, did not dare to accuse Satan, but rather said, "The Lord rebuke you" (Jude 1:9). In response to Satan's attacks, a Christian should appeal to Christ. Instead of focusing on defeating the devil, we should focus on following Christ (Hebrews 12:2) and trust that He will defeat the forces of evil.

    It is not necessary for a Christian to rebuke Satan because God has given us His full armor to stand against evil (see Ephesians 6:10-18). The most effective weapons we have against the devil are our faith, wisdom, and knowledge about God and His Word. Christ, when tempted by Satan, answered him with Scripture (see Matthew 4:1-11). To gain victory in spiritual matters, we must maintain a clear conscience and have control over our thoughts. "For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).

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  5. My suspicion was that as a close friend of John Haller, Jacob Prasch would try to scupper this Prewrath Conference in some way. In the event they shot themselves in the foot!Alan Kurschner is very sound on the subject of the pre-wrath rapture. I would be very surprised if he were part of charismania. Charles Cooper is very full of himself, but in reality he is full of his own opinions as opposed to sound biblical teaching. Thank you for the verses Tim.
    God bless.

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    1. Jacob clearly has a track record of looking the other way even with Moriel affiliates as long as your being good little churches and not coming out against him (meaning Prasch)

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  6. Check out Coopers advice at the 5 min mark. Some of it is good though. What about reading your bible and memorizing scripture. 6:20 your cup of meal will be filled. Really? Thats false teaching and taking one event of scripture out of context. How about the Christians starving all over the world right now? Wow. Is their faith not good enough. This is hyper charsmania at its worst.

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  7. I am listening to session 3 of this Conference.
    Cooper: "In my tradition people stand up, clap, run around and do things." His "tradition" is charismatic I assume.
    Cooper's paraphrase of Revelation 6:10 -
    "God when are you going to get down there and start kicking butt for what they did to us?" (14 minute mark).
    I do not like Cooper's teaching style one little bit.
    I will try to listen further to session 3, but I am struggling to relate.
    https://www.alankurschner.com/2019/10/28/the-seals-trumpets-and-bowls-in-relation-to-the-rapture-and-the-day-of-the-lord-ep-150/?fbclid=IwAR0YQhR9e4HxAxTTQNQz_Z7ak-TRJRkmuuQb7rbYyfnV2hx0z3I52TPz3M4

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  8. Treena, I haven't listened to any of Cooper's talk (i have no inclination to do so), I am only commenting on your analysis of it, but, when he is talking about "kicking butt", I assume he is referring to the colonial period/slave trade etc?
    If correct, I would have thought he would have let go of all that by now, being, I would have hoped, a mature Christian?
    To talk about "us" in this context, is wrong, for it is a denial of Acts 17:26, Gen.3:20? Regardless of colour, culture or whatever, any true Christian would not talk the way he does, or have I got it wrong?

    Some just can't get over that awful period; what man did to his fellow man back then makes my stomach turn, but such is the sinful nature of fallen man? As we know, vile atrocities are being committed by man against his fellow man today, and WHO but God in Christ "will put the world to rights" as the saying goes?

    Cooper's "tradition" as he calls it, from what I have observed with my own eyes, certainly would be charismatic.
    God bless.

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    1. "They cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?'” (Revelation 6:10)
      Cooper's translation: "God when are you going to get down there and start kicking butt for what they did to us?" (14 minute mark).
      Nothing to do with the slave trade.
      I listened to about half of Session 3.. but it was very upsetting listening to someone who obviously has no respect for God's Holy Word!!! What is more upsetting to me is that people are raving about Cooper on a prewrath group on the internet, and Alan Kurschner is promoting him. Am I on a different planet or what?
      I may persevere and write another post.
      God bless.

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  9. Thanks for correcting me, I am glad it was nothing to do with the slave trade-somehow I didn't think it would be; it is easy to misinterpret when people use such language!
    As for Kurschner, well....
    God Bless.

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  10. You all are confused. Churchianity, as they say.

    Don’t get me wrong; I am not a preterist at all. I know people will run away if they think something is a doctrine that preterism teaches. I have done that also.

    Acts 2 and Joel 2 are speaking about the same event. Acts 2 even quotes Joel and Joel talks about Pentecost, which was spoken of in Acts 2 (I will add the verses below).

    There is an event where the sun turns dark and the moon into blood, as I am sure you know. A lot of people mix this up with another event where the sun and moon turn dark and the stars withdraw their shining. The moon turning to blood also matches the 6th seal and is spoken of in Joel and Acts pertaining to Pentecost.

    If the events are the same, then that means at least the first 6 seals have happened. To me, that is not hard to imagine with past destruction we see that has happened long after the flood.

    I don’t at all see how all of Revelation must be future. I don’t think there is an argument for that. For example, Revelation 12 is clearly talking about Jesus and some crazy twisting has to be done to make it about Israel or the Church.

    Here are the verses:

    And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
    And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
    And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
    And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. Joel 2:28-32

    But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
    And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
    And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
    And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
    And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:16-21

    They are almost identical.

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  11. Barnes' Notes: "Much of the difficulty of interpreting these verses consists in affixing the proper meaning to the expression 'that great and notable day of the Lord.' If it be limited to the day of Pentecost, it is certain that no such events occurred at that time. But there is, it is believed, no propriety in confining it to that time. The description here pertains to "the last days" Acts 2:17; that is, to the whole of that period of duration, however long, which was known by the prophets as 'the last times.' That period might be extended through many centuries; and during that period all these events would take place. The day of the Lord is the day when God will manifest himself in a special manner; a day when he will so strikingly be seen in his wonders and his judgments that it may be called his day. Thus, it is applied to the day of judgment as the day of the Son of man; the day in which he will be the great attractive object, and will be signally glorified, Luke 17:24; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; Philippians 1:6; 2 Peter 3:12. If, as I suppose, "that notable day of the Lord" here refers to that future time when God will manifest himself in judgment, then we are not to suppose that Peter meant to say that these 'wonders' would take place on the day of Pentecost, or had their fulfillment then, "but would occur under that indefinite period called "the last days," the days of the Messiah, and before that period Was closed by the great day of the Lord." The gift of tongues was a partial fulfillment of the general prophecy pertaining to those times. And as the prophecy was thus partially fulfilled, it was a pledge that it would be entirely; and thus there was laid a foundation for the necessity of repentance, and for calling on the Lord in order to be saved."
    https://biblehub.com/commentaries/barnes/acts/2.htm

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