JOE SCHIMMEL BLESSED HOPE CHAPEL: VICTORINUS IS UNRELIABLE

Joe Schimmel takes his post-tribulation rapture view from the unreliable and utterly confused third century Church Father, Victorinus of Pettau. Victorinus' commentary on the book of Revelation is the source mentioned by Joe Schimmel Blessed Hope Chapel in a weak attempt to justify his post-tribulation rapture view. {1}

According to Joe Schimmel, the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl correspond to one another i.e. they are the same events. Joe Schimmel "..he (Victorinus) talks about a recapitulation, and how the bowls overlap.. they are not written consecutively.." {2} 

Apparently Victorinus was the first of the Church Fathers to invent the basic notion of repetition. He asserted that the apocalypse is not one uninterrupted and developing line of prophecy, but rather that various subdivisions run parallel with each other. Victorinus speculated that the theme of the soon coming second advent was a continuous thread of thought throughout the Apocalypse. {3} Victorinus' muddled ramblings run counter to the scriptures which demonstrate a consecutive-progressive framework for the seals, trumpets and bowls.

Alan Kurschner: "The prewrath position interprets a sequential chronological framework for the seals, trumpets, and bowls. That is, the seal-trumpet-bowl septets (sets of seven) will happen in a consecutive-progressive fashion with each septet consecutively following each other. For example, the trumpet septet cannot begin until the seventh seal is opened; and the bowl septet cannot begin before the seventh trumpet is blown. The last judgment element of the day of the Lord’s wrath will be the seventh bowl. Accordingly, the seventh seal and the seventh trumpet serve as transitions to the next set of God’s climaxing judgments, culminating with the seventh bowl." {4}

A cursory examination of Victorinus' commentary on the Apocalypse exposes some concerning departures from the scriptures.

From the Sixth Chapter    

Victorinus: 1,2. And when the Lamb had opened one of the seven seals, I saw, and heard one of the four living creatures saying, Come and see. And, lo, a white horse, and He who sat upon him had a bow.. The first seal being opened, he says that he saw a white horse, and a crowned horseman having a bow. For this was at first done by Himself. For after the Lord ascended into heaven and opened all things, He sent the  Holy Spirit, whose words the preachers sent forth as arrows reaching to the human heart, that they might overcome unbelief. And the crown on the head is promised to the preachers by the Holy Spirit. The other three horses very plainly signify the wars, famines, and pestilences announced by our Lord in the Gospel. And thus he says that one of the four living creatures said (because all four are one), Come and see. Come is said to him that is invited to faith; see is said to him who saw not. Therefore the white horse is the word of preaching with the Holy Spirit sent into the world. For the Lord says, This Gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world for a testimony to all nations, and then shall come the end.

Victorinus incorrectly identifies the white horse of Revelation 6:1-2 as the Holy Spirit. 
The consensus amongst reliable commentators is that the rider on the white horse is the Antichrist.

Victorinus: The black horse signifies famine, for the Lord says, There shall be famines in various places; but the word is specially extended to the times of Antichrist, when there shall be a great famine, and when all shall be injured. Moreover, the balance in the hand is the examining scales, wherein He might show forth the merits of every individual. He then says:—
6. Hurt not the wine and the oil. That is, strike not the spiritual man with your inflictions. This is the black horse.

The third seal/black horse relates to the beginning of birth pains i.e. famines in various places. (Revelation 6:5-6; Matthew 24:7-8). The Antichrist makes his appearance in the third temple at the mid point of the 70th week of Daniel after the first four seals are opened. (Daniel 9:27).  

Benson: "And he that sat on him had a pair of balances, or scales, in his hand — Implying that men should eat their bread by weight, and drink their water by measure, or that there should be a great scarcity." {5} 

Hurt not the wine and the oil - Revelation 6:6b does not refer to the exemption of "the spiritual man". The catastrophic events inflicted by the seals are indiscriminate natural occurrences. 

Victorinus: 9. And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain. He relates that he saw under the altar of God, that is, under the earth, the souls of them that were slain.  Victorinus identifies this alter as the brazen altar ..the brazen altar is understood the earth, under which is the Hades, — a region withdrawn from punishments and fires, and a place of repose for the saints. 

Various commentaries confirm that the fifth seal martyrs are in the Lord's presence in heaven. {6} Therefore this alter is not under the earth. The scriptures indicate that Paradise (Abraham's bosom) was moved from Hades to Heaven at some point after the resurrection. (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:2-4). 

Victorinus And for a solace to their body, there were given unto each of them white robes. They received, says he, white robes, that is, the gift of the Holy Spirit.  

The white robes of the martyrs signify purity.

12. And I saw, when he had opened the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake. In the sixth seal, then, was a great earthquake: this is that very last persecution.  

And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair. The sun becomes as sackcloth; that is, the brightness of doctrine will be obscured by unbelievers.

And the entire moon became as blood. By the moon of blood is set forth the Church of the saints as pouring out her blood for Christ. 

13. And the stars fell to the earth. The falling of the stars are the faithful who are troubled for Christ's sake.
Even as a fig-tree casts her untimely figs. The fig-tree, when shaken, loses its untimely figs — when men are separated from the Church by persecution. 

14. And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up. For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away.

From the Seventh Chapter

2. And the trumpet is the word of power. And although the same thing recurs in the phials, still it is not said as if it occurred twice, but because what is decreed by the Lord to happen shall be once for all; for this cause it is said twice. What, therefore, He said too little in the trumpets, is here found in the phials. We must not regard the order of what is said, because frequently the Holy Spirit, when He has traversed even to the end of the last times, returns again to the same times, and fills up what He had before failed to say. Nor must we look for order in the Apocalypse; but we must follow the meaning of those things which are prophesied. Therefore in the trumpets and phials is signified either the desolation of the plagues that are sent upon the earth, or the madness of Antichrist himself, or the cutting off of the peoples, or the diversity of the plagues, or the hope in the kingdom of the saints, or the ruin of states, or the great overthrow of Babylon, that is, the Roman state.

I could continue, but hopefully I have done enough to make the point that Victorinus' commentary on the Apocalypse is deeply flawed. Although he was premillennial, Victorinus wrote in an allegorical style unacceptable to literal futurist premillennialists. Premillennialism depends upon a literal interpretation of prophecy, taking the words in their ordinary sense, and this is obviously not the case with Victorinus' exposition.

 

It is irresponsible for any bible believing Christian to base their eschatology on Victorinus, or any other Church Father, without testing their writings against the scriptures. (1 John 4:1; Acts 17:11). Victorinus' unscriptural interpretation muddies the waters, and his exegesis is, for the most part, defective. (Ezekiel 32:13-14). 

One has to engage is eisegesis and read ones own interpretation into the text to come up with a concurrent interpretation. This is a weighty matter because any departure from the scriptures has unhelpful implications for those Christians who are already confused about the timing of the rapture. (Revelation 22:18-19). Joe Schimmel's valid critique of the pre-trib view is blighted by the fact that he is unable to demonstrate his concurrent view from the scriptures. To have resorted to the fallacious teachings of Victorinus is a desperate measure that I might have expected from a false teacher, not from Joe Schimmel. 

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).

My question: Why does Joe Schimmel take his interpretation of the book of Revelation from this confused third century Church Father?

1. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0712.htm
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0Y5PrIC-ME
3. https://peoplepill.com/people/victorinus-of-pettau/
4. https://www.alankurschner.com/2015/05/28/seals-trumpets-bowls-in-the-book-of-revelation-concurrent-recapitulation-or-consecutive-progressive-part-1-of-2-ep-36/
5. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/6-5.htm
6. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/6-9.htm

Further Posts: 

https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/search/label/Joe%20Schimmel%20Blessed%20Hope%20Chapel

JOE SCHIMMEL BLESSED HOPE CHAPEL: THE SIXTH SEAL, THE SEVENTH TRUMPET AND THE SEVENTH BOWL

Sunday Morning Service 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0Y5PrIC-ME

I have attempted to broach the question of the post-tribulation rapture view with Good Fight Ministries previously, in particular their view of the seals, trumpets and bowls. My discussion with GFM on the below link exposed a blind spot in their understanding of the timing of the rapture as it relates to the cosmic disturbances in Matthew 24:29-31. In fact all three synoptic gospels confirm the proximity of the rapture to the cosmic disturbances in Revelation 6:12-14. Although I am on board with Joe Schimmel (Blessed Hope Chapel/GFM) in many respects, their post-trib rapture view does not stand up to close scrutiny. (Acts 17:11).

Good Fight Ministries Scewed Post-trib Rapture View

https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/2020/04/good-fight-ministries-skewed-post-trib.html

Why is this question important?

How can post-trib proponents successfully oppose the pre-tribulation rapture when their own position has obvious flaws?  

Sadly the post-trib position does nothing to dispel the confusion surrounding the controversial subject of the timing of the rapture. To their discredit, the post-trib camp cannot defend their position biblically. This post is more detailed than my previous efforts, in the hope that Joe Schimmel and his team will study the scriptures rather than argue their position from preconceived ideas and eisegesis. (2 Timothy 2:15). 

According to Joe Schimmel, the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl correspond to one another i.e. they are the same events. Joe mentions an unreliable third century church father by the name of Victorinus. Apparently Victorinus was the first of the Church Fathers to ascertain the basic notion of repetition – that the Apocalypse is not one uninterrupted and developing line of prophecy, but rather that various subdivisions run parallel with each other. And he saw that the theme of the soon coming Second Advent was a continuous thread of thought throughout the Apocalypse.{1} Joe Schimmel "..he (Victorinus) talks about a recapitulation, and how the bowls overlap.. they are not written consecutively.. but whatever you believe about that, ultimately you need to understand this.. that prior to Christs coming in Revelation chapter 19, the Bride has been made ready.."  

Joe Schimmel's phrase "whatever you believe about that" assigns the subject to a non-essential category, i.e. whatever we happen believe about the timing of the rapture will not ultimately affect our salvation. In the case of pre-trib view I do not agree. There is a distinct possibility that pre-trib believers will "fall away" during the great tribulation. As such there is an inescapable correlation between the pre-trib rapture view and salvation. (Matthew 24:10; 1 Timothy 4:1). Moreover, there are significant reasons why the post-trib/prewrath debate should not be trivialized. If we fall short in this respect, we may unintentionally put a stumbling block in the way of our pre-trib friends, and also those who throw their hands in the air and say that they are "pan-trib" (it will all pan out i.e. those who underrate the significance of the rapture question). (Leviticus 19:14; 2 Corinthians 6:3). A growing number of Christians now adhere to the prewrath rapture position, having studied the scriptures and rightly divided the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15). 

Joe Schimmel rightly says that it is imperative that we have a right understanding of the timing of events in the book of Revelation. He says: "We are warned not to add or take away from this book, we dare not trifle with the outline that Jesus gave us.. God does not want us to add or take away from just one verse of the book of Revelation.. When you come up with a theology, or an eschatology ~ an eschatological construct that destroys the entire book... think what that does to God's heart.."  

I do not claim that the post-trib rapture view destroys the whole book of Revelation. However, this view is problematic and potentially damaging for the reasons outlined above. When scripture is misinterpreted it is often the thin end of the wedge. (1 Corinthians 4:6). CH Spurgeon: "It is knowing the difference between right and almost right. ... The devil likes to mix his lies with just enough of the truth to make it look plausible." 

Victorinus: "The Apocalypse here shows, therefore, that these reapers, and shepherds, and labourers, are the angels. And the trumpet is the word of power. And although the same thing recurs in the phials, still it is not said as if it occurred twice, but because what is decreed by the Lord to happen shall be once for all; for this cause it is said twice. What, therefore, He said too little in the trumpets, is here found in the phials. We must not regard the order of what is said, because frequently the Holy Spirit, when He has traversed even to the end of the last times, returns again to the same times, and fills up what He had before failed to say. Nor must we look for order in the Apocalypse; but we must follow the meaning of those things which are prophesied. Therefore in the trumpets and phials is signified either the desolation of the plagues that are sent upon the earth, or the madness of Antichrist himself, or the cutting off of the peoples, or the diversity of the plagues, or the hope in the kingdom of the saints, or the ruin of states, or the great overthrow of Babylon, that is, the Roman state." {2}

The sixth seal:

When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, (Revelation 6:12).
Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31).

Matthew 24 specifically locates the cosmic disturbances of Revelation 6 immediately after the great tribulation. The rapture becomes imminent after the cosmic disturbances of the sixth seal i.e. it occurs between and the sixth seventh seal. The sixth seal indicates the impending wrath of God, specifically, the chronological sets of seven trumpet and and seven bowl judgements following the seventh seal.

The seventh seal:

Revelation 8 follows an explicit sequence of events:

~ The Lamb opens the seventh seal and there is silence in heaven for about half an hour. (v1)

~ Seven trumpets are given to the angels. (v2)

~ The seven angels prepare to blow the trumpets. (v6)

~ The first angel blows his trumpet. (v7).

~ The second to the fourth trumpets are sounded. (v8-12)

~ The remaining three trumpets are about to be sounded. (v13)

This passage is unequivocal. Common sense tells us that the sixth seal precedes the seventh seal and that the trumpets follow the opening of the seventh seal in chronological order. How does Joe Schimmel come up with the conclusion that the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet are the same event?

When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them. The first angel blew his trumpet, and there followed hail and fire, mixed with blood, and these were thrown upon the earth. And a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up. (Revelation 8-1-7). 

There is an increasing intensity in the judgements as the seals, trumpets and bowls are discharged. The seals release natural events: sword, famine and pestilence, culminating in the sixth seal "great earthquake" and the cosmic disturbances, indicating that "the great day of their wrath" is at hand. (Revelation 6:12,17). The seven trumpets differ from the seals in that they are supernatural events dispensed by angels. Note the phrases in Revelation 8: thrown upon the earth, thrown into the sea, a great star fell from heaven, a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars. The three woes indicate even greater intensity. When the fifth angel sounds his trumpet a star falls from heaven to earth. The fifth angel opens the shaft of the bottomless pit releasing demonic "locusts" that torture humans for five months. (Revelation 9:1-7). The sixth trumpet releases four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind. (Revelation 9:15). The seventh trumpet: ..but that in the days of the trumpet call to be (μέλλῃ) sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. (Revelation  10:7).  μέλλω = 3195 méllō – properly, at the very point of acting; ready, 'about to happen.' {3} The intensity of God's wrath upon the godless increases when the bowls are poured out on the earth. (Revelation 16:1-20). A plain reading of the text suggests a quick chronological succession of events. 

The Fifth Seal Martyrs

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Revelation 6:9-11).

This passage indicates that the wrath of God is yet to be discharged. As such, the trumpet and bowl judgments cannot occur before the fifth seal is opened.

There are various additional problems associated with the post-trib view that I have not mentioned in this post. I recommend Alan Kurschner's website for a full assessment of the difficulties associated with this view. 

(See Further Links). 

I would like to see Joe Schimmel and his team specifically address the problems associated with their view. It seems odd that Joe has not applied his usual expertise/exegesis in this area. Inexplicably he offers nothing concrete to substantiate his claims for a post-trib rapture.  

1. https://peoplepill.com/people/victorinus-of-pettau/
2. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0712.htm
3. https://biblehub.com/greek/3195.htm

Further Links

https://www.alankurschner.com/2014/02/22/seals-trumpets-bowls-at-the-same-time-or-one-after-the-other-i-e-concurrent-recapitulation-or-consecutive-https://www.alankurschner.com/2015/06/04/seals-trumpets-bowls-concurrent-recapitulation-or-consecutive-progressive-part-2-of-2-ep-37/
progressive/https://www.alankurschner.com/2017/08/10/articles-for-posttribulationism-to-consider/

https://www.alankurschner.com/2020/09/05/3-key-reasons-why-posttribbers-are-becoming-prewrath/?fbclid=IwAR0DBb_Mzw0_SRN9uxi5GI69rtNhaRBt3VcfICoTAOCFnYd6CBhypNH9gRs
https://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/emails/prewrathposttrib.html

https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/2020/09/joe-schimmel-blessed-hope-chapel.html

GOOD FIGHT MINISTRIES SKEWED POST-TRIB RAPTURE VIEW

Below: A challenging conversation I had recently with Good Fight Ministries regarding the post-tribulation rapture position following their video:
Not Appointed to Wrath 19th March 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki9EMQtEcPg&t=142s

The Rapture at the End of the Age 5th March 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaSdF91Rdu8&t=1s

The exchange continued in the comments of GFM's later video:
Take the Mark of the Beast by Accident 3rd April 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EylrX7Px3Hs

 

It is concerning that whoever it was that engaged with me from GFM did not recognize the specific timing of the rapture as detailed in Matthew 24:29-31. This is to ignore the principles of sound exegesis! (Proverbs 30:5; Psalm 119:160). In fact all three synoptic gospels confirm the rapture and its imminency in relation to the cosmic disturbances in Revelation 6:12-14:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’  (Isaiah 13:10, Isaiah 34:4, and Joel 2:10)
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:20-31).

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. (Mark 13:24-27).

“And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” (Luke 21:25-28).

Revelation chapters 14-16 CONFIRM this sequence of events: 

• The rapture. (Revelation 14:14-16).
• Preparation for God's wrath. (Revelation 15:5-7).
• The execution of God's wrath. (Revelation 16:1-20. 

I have nothing more to add to this conversation. Clearly GFM need to do some further study into this subject.

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).

GOOD FIGHT MINISTRIES: POST-TRIB RAPTURE CONFUSION

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki9EMQtEcPg
Good Fight Ministries - Not Appointed To Wrath

I haven't tackled the problems associated with the post-trib rapture view in any depth previously. I am in total agreement with Good Fight Ministries that the pre-trib view is highly speculative and dangerous. Pre-trib teachings expose believers to spiritual deception and puts them at serious risk of apostasy - as such pre-trib should be vigorously refuted. (Matthew 24:10). I do not consider that post-trib teaching has anything like the same level of error as pre-trib. However, the difficulties associated with this view are confusing to say the least! (1 Corinthians 14:33). I find it reasonable that savvy pretribulationists and others are unable to accept the post-trib position due to its various scriptural inconsistencies. For the sake of clarity, it must surely be necessary to iron out the difficulties associated with the post-trib view and to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).

1 Thessalonians 4 and 5

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not  grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

Now (δέ) concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3). 

The chapter division between 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 is is extremely unhelpful. It is unfortunate that this inappropriate break in the text often adds to the confusion regarding the timing of the rapture. In 1 Thessalonians 5:1, Paul makes the transition from the rapture to the day of the Lord (δέ = but, and, now, (a connective or adversative particle). {1} In other words, the times and seasons that Paul refers to are relevant to the preceding verses regarding those who are caught up (the rapture), but they are also relevant to the day of the Lord (the wrath). It appears that the post-trib camp merge both these events together into a 24 hour single day, but this proposition is inconsistent with the scriptures. 

Joe Schimmel: "The same coming where Jesus comes to destroy the wicked, and he comes like a thief,  (Jesus put that at the end of the tribulation Matthew 24)..  it is the same day he comes upon the wicked, it is the same day he comes to us.."   

Joe is quite hard to follow, but as far as I understand it, he is saying that the rapture happens on the same day as the wrath is poured out upon the wicked, after the great tribulation. (Matthew 24:30-31). The problem with this view is that Matthew 24 does not state that the wrath is initiated quite yet. After the great tribulation is cut short, the cosmic disturbances and the rapture precede the day of the Lord (the wrath of God). The wrath becomes imminent after the seventh seal is broken, before the trumpet judgements are initiated. (Revelation 8:1-2). 

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31).

Further evidence that the rapture takes place before the day of the Lord is found in Revelation 7:9-17.  "the great multitude from every nation " appear in heaven in resurrection bodies before the seventh seal is broken. “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. (Revelation 7:14 cf. Matthew 24:29, 31).

Joe goes on to quote:
..and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8).

Paul refers to the Thessalonian church and to himself in the present tense, who are afflicted (θλιβομενοις verb - present passive participle). Clearly, departed saints are not "afflicted" after they go to be with the Lord, and yet there is a real sense that the martyrs in particular are waiting for justice:

They (the departed martyrs) cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

In that sense, the martyrs will get "relief " when the Lord executes his vengeance.

In any event, it is difficult to explain "the coming of the Lord with his saints", if the rapture takes place at the same time as a supposed literal 24 hour day of the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 3:13). 

Prewrath and post-trib differ chronologically. According to the scriptures, the rapture precedes the day of the Lord, which makes it a prewrath event. Furthermore, the post-trib claim that this "day" is a literal 24 hour period cannot be correct. Note: days (plural) describes the seventh trumpet call: ..but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. (Revelation 10:7). Furthermore, the scriptures demonstrate that the day of the Lord is at least longer than a five month period of time. (Revelation 9:5). Isaiah 34:8; 61:2 and 63:4 may indicate a year long "day of vengeance" (Edom being symbolic of God's final judgement against the nations. [Isaiah 34:4]). 

1. https://biblehub.com/greek/1161.htm

Further Links:

End Times Seminar Session 4 - The Day of the Lord
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Ynrb2qugA&list=PLDS6L4dOrrh2b31rfWbTduK8Dv7LlQNlk&index=5&t=2s
Articles for Posttribulationism to Consider
https://www.alankurschner.com/2017/08/10/articles-for-posttribulationism-to-consider/
Good Fight Ministries Skewed Post-Trib Rapture View
https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/2020/04/good-fight-ministries-skewed-post-trib.html

GOOD FIGHT MINISTRIES - THE POST-TRIB RAPTURE

This post is not written with the intention of exposing Joe Schimmel as a false teacher, but rather to question his understanding regarding the timing of the rapture.

The timing of the rapture has been a hot topic for some years and the controversy continues to rage on. Good Fight's DVD Left Behind or Led Astray successfully refuted the pre-trib error, and yet still many Christians remain divided and confused over the issue.

As much as I concur with Good Fight Ministries teaching in many respects, there are some questions about the post-tribulation rapture that I am unable to resolve.


In Good Fight Ministries recent podcast above, Joe Schimmel states that believers will be resurrected on "the last day", i.e. the literal last day of the current age. (20 minute mark) I believe that this is erroneous. The phrase "the last day" (τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ) occurs seven times in the New Testament and is peculiar to the Gospel of John.
(John 6:39,40,44,54;11:24;12:48).

A literal interpretation of the scriptures should always be taken unless the context indicates otherwise. In this instance the Apostle John does not expand on the phrase "the last day", and I have not found a commentary that really addresses the subject. Eschatologically "the last day" finds it equivalence in "the day of wrath" aka "that day", "the day of the Lord" etc. as found in a number of passages. (e.g. Joel 2:3; Acts 2:17-21; Isaiah 2:12; Amos 5:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:2). More specifically the book of Revelation identifies the exact time when this "day" begins.. for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Revelation 6:17). The day of wrath commences when the seventh seal is opened, following the cessation of the great tribulation and the cosmic disturbances of the sixth seal. (Revelation 6:12-17). This "day" cannot be a literal twenty four hour period for obvious reasons. (Revelation 9:5,10; Revelation 10:7). ..but that in the days (plural) of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. (Revelation 10:7). 

In Revelation 7, the rapture appears to have taken place before the wrath of God is poured out i.e. before the trumpet judgements begin in Revelation 8.

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:9-14)

White robes are indicative of the marriage supper:

Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,

“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our God
the Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready;
it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure”—

for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” (Revelation 19:6-9).

Although prewrath and post-trib do have elements in common, there are weaknesses in the post-trib view that are irreconcilable with the scriptures. These weaknesses give ammunition to those who attempt to justify the deceptive pre-trib view. At the same time, the obvious deficiencies of the post-trib view do nothing to convince those who would otherwise accept a prewrath rapture.

Alan Kurschner (Eschatos Ministries) has summarised some of the inconsistencies found in the post-trib position as follows:

The resurrection takes place in Revelation 20
The second coming begins in Revelation 19
The second coming begins when Jesus physically comes to earth
The seals, trumpets, bowls occur concurrently
The rapture happens at the seventh trumpet
Paul’s “last trump” refers to the seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation
The great tribulation is 3 1/2 years long
The day of the Lord is a literal 24-hour day

After the rapture, God’s people immediately descend to earth {1}

It would be helpful to get some response from GFM on these questions?

1. https://www.alankurschner.com/2015/10/10/replies-to-the-post-tribulational-rapture-view/