GOOD FIGHT MINISTRIES: POST-TRIB RAPTURE CONFUSION

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki9EMQtEcPg
Good Fight Ministries - Not Appointed To Wrath

I haven't tackled the problems associated with the post-trib rapture view in any depth previously. I am in total agreement with Good Fight Ministries that the pre-trib view is highly speculative and dangerous. Pre-trib teachings expose believers to spiritual deception and puts them at serious risk of apostasy - as such pre-trib should be vigorously refuted. (Matthew 24:10). I do not consider that post-trib teaching has anything like the same level of error as pre-trib. However, the difficulties associated with this view are confusing to say the least! (1 Corinthians 14:33). I find it reasonable that savvy pretribulationists and others are unable to accept the post-trib position due to its various scriptural inconsistencies. For the sake of clarity, it must surely be necessary to iron out the difficulties associated with the post-trib view and to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).

1 Thessalonians 4 and 5

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not  grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

Now (δέ) concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3). 

The chapter division between 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 is is extremely unhelpful. It is unfortunate that this inappropriate break in the text often adds to the confusion regarding the timing of the rapture. In 1 Thessalonians 5:1, Paul makes the transition from the rapture to the day of the Lord (δέ = but, and, now, (a connective or adversative particle). {1} In other words, the times and seasons that Paul refers to are relevant to the preceding verses regarding those who are caught up (the rapture), but they are also relevant to the day of the Lord (the wrath). It appears that the post-trib camp merge both these events together into a 24 hour single day, but this proposition is inconsistent with the scriptures. 

Joe Schimmel: "The same coming where Jesus comes to destroy the wicked, and he comes like a thief,  (Jesus put that at the end of the tribulation Matthew 24)..  it is the same day he comes upon the wicked, it is the same day he comes to us.."   

Joe is quite hard to follow, but as far as I understand it, he is saying that the rapture happens on the same day as the wrath is poured out upon the wicked, after the great tribulation. (Matthew 24:30-31). The problem with this view is that Matthew 24 does not state that the wrath is initiated quite yet. After the great tribulation is cut short, the cosmic disturbances and the rapture precede the day of the Lord (the wrath of God). The wrath becomes imminent after the seventh seal is broken, before the trumpet judgements are initiated. (Revelation 8:1-2). 

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31).

Further evidence that the rapture takes place before the day of the Lord is found in Revelation 7:9-17.  "the great multitude from every nation " appear in heaven in resurrection bodies before the seventh seal is broken. “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. (Revelation 7:14 cf. Matthew 24:29, 31).

Joe goes on to quote:
..and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8).

Paul refers to the Thessalonian church and to himself in the present tense, who are afflicted (θλιβομενοις verb - present passive participle). Clearly, departed saints are not "afflicted" after they go to be with the Lord, and yet there is a real sense that the martyrs in particular are waiting for justice:

They (the departed martyrs) cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

In that sense, the martyrs will get "relief " when the Lord executes his vengeance.

In any event, it is difficult to explain "the coming of the Lord with his saints", if the rapture takes place at the same time as a supposed literal 24 hour day of the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 3:13). 

Prewrath and post-trib differ chronologically. According to the scriptures, the rapture precedes the day of the Lord, which makes it a prewrath event. Furthermore, the post-trib claim that this "day" is a literal 24 hour period cannot be correct. Note: days (plural) describes the seventh trumpet call: ..but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. (Revelation 10:7). Furthermore, the scriptures demonstrate that the day of the Lord is at least longer than a five month period of time. (Revelation 9:5). Isaiah 34:8; 61:2 and 63:4 may indicate a year long "day of vengeance" (Edom being symbolic of God's final judgement against the nations. [Isaiah 34:4]). 

1. https://biblehub.com/greek/1161.htm

Further Links:

End Times Seminar Session 4 - The Day of the Lord
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Ynrb2qugA&list=PLDS6L4dOrrh2b31rfWbTduK8Dv7LlQNlk&index=5&t=2s
Articles for Posttribulationism to Consider
https://www.alankurschner.com/2017/08/10/articles-for-posttribulationism-to-consider/
Good Fight Ministries Skewed Post-Trib Rapture View
https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/2020/04/good-fight-ministries-skewed-post-trib.html

ALPHA COURSE CONCERNS

The Roots Of The Alpha Course

Alpha began at Holy Trinity Brompton Church (CofE)) in London in 1977. In 1990 Nicky Gumbel, then a curate at HTB, adapted the course in order to facilitate people outside the church who were interested in exploring the Christian faith. It is claimed that millions of people have attended Alpha since 1993. The course now runs in every part of the "global church", including the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church and all mainline Protestant denominations. {1}   

Gumbel is an out and out Romanist.

Alpha's ecumenical slant should be a huge red flag for supposed "bible believing" church leaders who should know better. Roman Catholicism is based on works salvation and is an abominable perversion of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Many denominations have now apostatised from the true gospel and are embracing the ungodly ecumenical agenda. (2 Corinthians 11:4).

Alpha's ambiguity is evidence of doctrinal weakness. 

By its own admission, Alpha is designed to present the essentials of Christian faith that all denominations agree on. {1} This strategy necessitates evading the clear gospel of Jesus Christ (Colossians 4:4). In effect Alpha's ambiguity opens the door to further ambiguity and error down the line.

"Alpha refers to salvation, the cross, the death of Christ, etc., in such a general way that false doctrine is not refuted. It says salvation is by grace, for instance, but it does not say that salvation is by grace ALONE by faith ALONE through the blood of Christ ALONE without works or sacraments. It refers to the Bible as God’s Word in a general sense, but it does not explain that the Bible is truly God’s inerrant, infallible, supernatural Word that must be reverenced and obeyed in every detail, that the Bible ALONE is the authority for faith and practice. It refers to Christ’s death on the cross, but does not plainly explain the vicarious atonement that was required for man’s salvation. It refers to man’s need, but it does not describe man as a totally depraved nature sinner. If Alpha were that specific, it is certain it would not be ecumenically popular in this apostate hour." {2} 

RCDOW: "It (Alpha) is wholly compatible with Catholic teaching, but it does not address specific Catholic teachings and ecclesiology." {3} 

The above statement is very telling! In order to be "compatible with Catholic teaching", Alpha by its very nature must involve doctrinal modus vivendi. RC historic opposition to faith alone in Jesus Christ still stands:

THE COUNCIL OF TRENT CANON XII -"If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema." {4}

The Holy Spirit Weekend

The controversial "Holy Spirit weekend" is the sine qua non of Alpha. Both Sandy Millar, the previous vicar of HTB, and Nicky Gumbel, personally experienced various dubious manifestations introduced by John Wimber during the 1980s, the prequel to the so called "Toronto Blessing". Holy Trinity Brompton's heavy promotion of Toronto was the catalyst that caused Alpha's popularity to explode during the 1990s.

Gumbel: “I believe it is no coincidence that the present movement of the Holy Spirit has come at the same time as the explosion of the Alpha Courses. I think the two go together.” {5}

The Holy Spirit weekend initiates spiritually naïve participants into the dangerous experience known in charismatic circles as the "transferable anointing". Alarmingly, without a comprehensive understanding of the gospel, this "anointing" leaves attendees vulnerable to "another spirit". (2 Corinthians 11:4,14; Matthew 13:19). Alpha "converts" have no competency to test the spirits as the scriptures instruct, as such they are an easy target for deceivers. (1 John 4:1). The method typically employed by Alpha is to infect their victims with this counterfeit spirit by the laying on of hands. The resulting occult manifestations, such as falling backwards, violent jerking, uncontrollable laughter, bodily contortions, "drunkenness" etc. is unbiblical and dangerous. (Acts 8:17). This error has spread like gangrene from Toronto and Holy Trinity Brompton. (2 Timothy 2:17). Toronto and its demonic manifestations have now been thoroughly exposed as counterfeit. (See Further Links)

Rob Thomas: "Using the classic cult technique of taking people out of their normal routine and surroundings, and placing them into a new and super-charged environment of intense expectation of Signs & Wonders, the candidates are ripe to receive WHATEVER comes their way! They are urged to be open to being "slain in the spirit" and experiencing strange physical sensations like shaking and heat. In short, persons are being taught and encouraged to receive a most UNHOLY type of spirit with attendant fleshly manifestations known in Eastern occultism as KUNDALINI.." {6}

ShipofFools: "My own parish had the unfortunate experience once of people walking out of the weekend because they felt duped - there were 'plants' as they took it, people sprinkled about the gathering whose job it would be to lay hands on people and pray for them to receive the Holy Spirit." {7}

Gumbel's Faulty Theology

Gumbel describes the Holy Spirit as a "Compelling Spirit". {8}
This description is very misleading. The Holy Spirit convicts, He never compels! (John 16:8).

..for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control. (2 Timothy 1:7)
..and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. (1 Corinthians 14:32).
God is not a God of disorder...1 Corinthians 14:33).

Gumbel on the gift of tongues: "You don't need to speak in tongues. It is not the most important gift. But tongues is a beginner's gift, and Alpha is a beginner's course in Christianity, so it would be wonderful if you tried.. They (tongues) take time to develop. Most of us start with a very limited vocabulary. It gradually develops. Tongues is like that. Don’t give up." {9}

Gumbel's description of the gift of tongues is inaccurate.

On the Day of Pentecost, no one had to "try" to speak in tongues; it was not something they needed to "learn" or "practice".

..they were all together in one place. (probably the hundred and twenty) (Acts 1:2,15).

And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:1-4).

Tongues is described by the Apostle Paul as a lesser gift than prophecy. (1 Corinthians 14:5; 12:28). Tongues are not a "beginners gift". Gumbel is full of these inconsistencies.

Before anyone accuses me of being a cessationist, I am not. I have personally received insights and revelations from the Lord, and I claim to have the gift of "discerning of spirits". (1 Corinthians 12:10). How ironic that "discerning of spirits", the most needed gift in these perilous times, is rejected by compromised churches when it disagrees with their ecumenical agenda. (2 Timothy 3:1)

Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).

ALPHA LEICESTER

https://www.facebook.com/pg/TLCBirstall/posts/

Below are some local churches in Leicester currently running Alpha. I have critiqued these churches previously due to their association with the heretical New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). (Jude 1:11).

Trinity Life Church Leicester https://www.facebook.com/pg/TLCBirstall/posts/
Kings Church Leicester https://www.kingschurchleicester.org/alpha/
All Nations Church Leicester https://www.ancl.co.uk/alpha/
Holy Trinity Church Leicester https://holytrinityleicester.org/who-we-are/why-jesus
St John's Church Clarendon Park https://www.sjbchurch.co.uk/alpha

1. https://www.alpha.org/nicky-gumbel/
2. https://kimolsen.net/2011/07/14/dangers-of-the-alpha-course/
3. https://rcdow.org.uk/att/files/faith/aff/alpha.pdf
4. http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm
5. Renewal magazine, May 1995, p15.
6. http://watchman4wales.blogspot.com/2013/
7. http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=023083
8. https://www.entegra.co.uk/alpha/Talk%206%20-¡%20How%20Does%20God%20Guide%20Us_Prison%20Script_1215.pdf..
9. Questions of Life, p147.

FURTHER LINKS

https://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=20704
http://www.banner.org.uk/misc/alpha.html
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/alpha.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/Alpha-Course.html
https://www.alpha.org/about/
http://www.spiritoferror.org/?s=new+apostolic+reformationhttps://
bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/search/label/Trinity%20Life%20Church%20Leicesterhttps://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/search/label/Holy%20Trinity%20Church

GOOD FIGHT MINISTRIES - THE POST-TRIB RAPTURE

This post is not written with the intention of exposing Joe Schimmel as a false teacher, but rather to question his understanding regarding the timing of the rapture.

The timing of the rapture has been a hot topic for some years and the controversy continues to rage on. Good Fight's DVD Left Behind or Led Astray successfully refuted the pre-trib error, and yet still many Christians remain divided and confused over the issue.

As much as I concur with Good Fight Ministries teaching in many respects, there are some questions about the post-tribulation rapture that I am unable to resolve.


In Good Fight Ministries recent podcast above, Joe Schimmel states that believers will be resurrected on "the last day", i.e. the literal last day of the current age. (20 minute mark) I believe that this is erroneous. The phrase "the last day" (τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ) occurs seven times in the New Testament and is peculiar to the Gospel of John.
(John 6:39,40,44,54;11:24;12:48).

A literal interpretation of the scriptures should always be taken unless the context indicates otherwise. In this instance the Apostle John does not expand on the phrase "the last day", and I have not found a commentary that really addresses the subject. Eschatologically "the last day" finds it equivalence in "the day of wrath" aka "that day", "the day of the Lord" etc. as found in a number of passages. (e.g. Joel 2:3; Acts 2:17-21; Isaiah 2:12; Amos 5:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:2). More specifically the book of Revelation identifies the exact time when this "day" begins.. for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Revelation 6:17). The day of wrath commences when the seventh seal is opened, following the cessation of the great tribulation and the cosmic disturbances of the sixth seal. (Revelation 6:12-17). This "day" cannot be a literal twenty four hour period for obvious reasons. (Revelation 9:5,10; Revelation 10:7). ..but that in the days (plural) of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. (Revelation 10:7). 

In Revelation 7, the rapture appears to have taken place before the wrath of God is poured out i.e. before the trumpet judgements begin in Revelation 8.

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:9-14)

White robes are indicative of the marriage supper:

Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,

“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our God
the Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready;
it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure”—

for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” (Revelation 19:6-9).

Although prewrath and post-trib do have elements in common, there are weaknesses in the post-trib view that are irreconcilable with the scriptures. These weaknesses give ammunition to those who attempt to justify the deceptive pre-trib view. At the same time, the obvious deficiencies of the post-trib view do nothing to convince those who would otherwise accept a prewrath rapture.

Alan Kurschner (Eschatos Ministries) has summarised some of the inconsistencies found in the post-trib position as follows:

The resurrection takes place in Revelation 20
The second coming begins in Revelation 19
The second coming begins when Jesus physically comes to earth
The seals, trumpets, bowls occur concurrently
The rapture happens at the seventh trumpet
Paul’s “last trump” refers to the seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation
The great tribulation is 3 1/2 years long
The day of the Lord is a literal 24-hour day

After the rapture, God’s people immediately descend to earth {1}

It would be helpful to get some response from GFM on these questions?

1. https://www.alankurschner.com/2015/10/10/replies-to-the-post-tribulational-rapture-view/