ANDY WOODS + PAUL WILKINSON: IS THE RAPTURE A SECONDARY ISSUE?

PPOV 346. Drs. Paul Wilkinson & Andy Woods discuss Christian Palestinianism. 3-21-25.

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. (Ephesians 6:12).

In this post, I am focusing on the above video from the 39-minute mark, when Andy Woods and Paul Wilkinson discuss "..rehabilitating John Nelson Darby and C.I. Scofield, and why the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture is under such vociferous attack today". For Woods and Wilkinson, the pretrib rapture is a primary issue, aka "the blessed hope". 

Darby's claim of direct revelation 

Paul Wilkinson purports to be an expert on John Nelson Darby, having supposedly written a PhD thesis on the subject. In this video, Wilkinson blatantly distorts several facts about Darby, beginning with the false claim that Darby arrived at the pretrib view by studying the scriptures.

Wilkinson: "Where did his (Darby's) understanding of the rapture come from? It didn't come immediately, but as he himself writes, in his own writings, he got it from studying the word.." (49:00 mark)

Darby - in his own words, claimed that God Himself revealed dispensational hermeneutics to him directly. 

Darby: "..what God has with infinite graciousness revealed to me concerning His dealing with the Church.."1 

"..it was in this the Lord was pleased, without man's teaching, first to open my eyes on this subject, that I might learn His will concerning it throughout."2 

Darby's claim of direct revelation from God puts the whole premise of his authenticity and the pretrib rapture on shaky ground. Darby put himself on the same level as the first-century apostles. (Galatians 1:12 cf. 1 Corinthians 11:23). It is not surprising that Darby claimed to receive "direct revelation" since he was associated with the Irvingites, who were pioneers in reviving the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit within the church. There are good reasons to believe that the Irvingites were precursors to the modern Pentecostal Movement.3 In our generation, many have learned painful lessons from recently exposed false NAR "apostles" and "prophets" such as Mike Bickle and Todd Bentley. It is a fatal mistake to buy into an alleged "prophetic word" without rigorously testing it against the scriptures. (1 John 4:1). Darby's claim was absolutely huge! He denied the very words of Jesus Christ Himself by announcing that the warnings in the Olivet discourse do not apply to the church. Wilkinson failed to mention that Darby's "direct revelation" was vigorously challenged by his contemporaries. In my view, the pretrib rapture is one of the biggest deceptions to be foisted onto the modern church. The pretrib camp has worked very hard to shoehorn the pretrib rapture into the scriptures. They have also made exhaustive efforts to prove that pretrib predates Darby and can be found in the Church Fathers. However, in both these endeavors they have failed miserably.4 Believers should consider the consequences ahead of time before the false hopes of pretrib leaders fail to materialize and the Antichrist's persecution becomes a reality. 

Woods: "My question for you is, is this a secondary issue, because a lot of people say 'don't get wrapped up in this, this is a secondary issue'? My other question..  Is the fact that pretribulationalism is always under assault proof that pretribulationalism is probably the right one?"

Wilkinson: "Is it a secondary issue? Well, the apostle Paul in Titus 2 said it's our blessed hope.. that's my hope, that's the church's hope.. Wilkinson continues with a lot of platitudes but he offers no exegesis of the various texts he cites. He completes his answer by trotting out the overused trope that Christians should be looking for Christ, not the Antichrist.  

Woods: "What I am hearing you say is that this is not a secondary issue because what you believe about this changes your focus."  Woods brings out another overused trope about bridegroom imagery with the excuse that if we go through the tribulation, then God is a "spousal abuser". This worn-out argument can equally be levelled against the martyrdom and persecution of Christians throughout church history. In the West, Christians are living in a persecution-free bubble, but this is not the case in many other countries. The scriptures warn us to expect persecution. (John 15:20; Matthew 5:11-12; 1 Peter 4:12-14; Philippians 1:29, etc.) When the Antichrist arrives at the midpoint of the 70th week, worldwide persecution against Jews and Christians will escalate exponentially. When God gives explicit warnings then we would be wise to take notice rather than bury our heads in the sand and be taken off guard! The very warnings that Jesus gave to his disciples about the end of the age in the Olivet Discourse are magicked away by pretrib teachers. (Matthew 24:4). Woods and Wilkinson can be in denial as much as they like, but their denial does not invalidate God's word!  

Woods: "I don't think it is a secondary issue either and I mark and avoid people. I have a hard time appearing on their shows, appearing at their conferences.. A lot of them have contacted me and wanted to participate at our conferences and when I find out they are aggressively promoting some other perspective, I just have a difficult time unleashing them in front of God's people.."

To paraphrase Woods' second question: 'Because the pretrib rapture is always under assault is proof that it is probably the right doctrine..' This remark lacks depth and fails to adequately explain or respond to the major exegetical problems associated with the pretrib rapture. Woods should know better than to offer this kind of pat answer. The truth will always be attacked by those who oppose the scriptures, but on the other hand, false doctrines also come under heavy attack by those who rightly divide the word of truth and practice discernment. (1 Timothy 2:15).

Is the timing of the rapture a secondary issue?

I feel the same way as Andy Woods in reverse, i.e., I "mark and avoid" those who promote the pretrib view. (Romans 16:16-17). I am not willing to quietly sit in a congregation and watch others passively swallow the pretrib Kool-Aid to their own destruction. At best, I consider pretrib leaders to be heavily deceived; at worst, I consider them to be wolves. (1 Timothy 4:1). My concern is that when the Antichrist's persecution begins, many will fall away and apostatize. (Matthew 24:10). In other words, many will forfeit their faith on the altar of the pretrib rapture. The stakes are incredibly high! Pastors who fail to prepare God's people for the coming persecution are sinfully negligent. What will happen to pretrib teachers who fail to sound the horn? (Ezekiel 33:6). Woods has effectively shut down any challenge to pretribulationism, and it is difficult to miss his particular hostility towards the prewrath camp. He can't even bear to mention the name of Alan Kurschner or any other prominent prewrath teacher.   

Woods: "Now we have this very perverted view of Rosenthall, and others came up with this, and there are some younger expondents and proponents of that view that I don't want to mention on this show because I don't want to promote their stuff..   They don't attack mid trib, post trib - they are always aiming their guns at pretribulationism. "  This is not true! While the false pretrib rapture teaching is a major concern to those within the prewrath camp, other views have not been ignored! Midtribulationism does not come in for much critique because it is only held by a small minority and is easily debunked. However, postribulationism has received attention from Alan Kurschner and others.5 

Paul Wilkinson's appalling distortion of John Nelson Darby

   

Wilkinson's claim that Darby was an innocuous guy who simply went around teaching the bible is outrageous. How did Wilkinson manage to miss the firestorm against Darby from "Open" Brethren leaders George Müller, Benjamin Wills Newton, Samuel Tregelles, and James Grant? These men denounced Darby as a despot who maligned scripture. Darby was also condemned by Charles Spurgeon and DL Moody. In addition, it is undeniable that Scofield was an absolute scoundrel.* I do not like to call anyone an out-and-out liar, but in this instance, I can't find an alternative explanation for Wilkinson's dishonesty. (Psalm 107:7; Proverbs 12:22; Ephesians 4:25).

For an accurate account of John Nelson Darby, see Papers of John Nelson Darby published by the John Rylands University Library at the University of Manchester. 

Charles Spurgeon:

"Mr. Darby is, to all intents and purposes a thorough Pope, though under a Protestant name. He will never admit that he is in error; and therefore very naturally declines to argue with those who controvert the soundness of his views. How, indeed, could it be otherwise? If Mr. Darby holds, which he does, with a firm grasp, the principle that whatever conclusions he and those acting in conjunction with him may come to, express beyond all question the mind of the Spirit; and if those Darbyites who gather together in London, can go so far as to exclude all other denominations, even the most godly among them, 'believing themselves to be the one or only, assembly of God in London,' how need we feel surprised that Mr. Darby, as the 'prophet, priest, and king' of the party, should exercise a perfect despotism within the domains of Darbyism?"6 

George Müller:
"Scripture declares plainly that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostasy shall have taken place, and the man of sin shall have been revealed."7

Anthony Groves:

"As the years passed, he (Groves) became increasingly concerned with the drift of the Plymouth Brethren towards sectarianism under the leadership of Darby and aligned himself with George Müller. The split was complete in 1848 to form the Open Brethren and the Exclusive Brethren."8

Wilkinson: "I have to believe and accept and rightly handle the word of my Lord. That's how I'm going to be judged by my Lord.. Did I rightly teach His word? Did I rightly divide it? Did I faithfully teach it? Wilkinson's nauseating emotional rhetoric is as false as his teaching. (John 4:24; Titus 1:16; Isaiah 29:13).

1. Reflections Upon The Prophetic Inquiry And The Views Advanced In It | Plymouth Brethren Writings
2. Evidence From Scripture of the Passing Away of the Present Dispensation - John Nelson Darby (#62234) - BTP
3. The Irvingites and the Gift of Tongues
4. Microsoft Word - Prewrath - Early Church Fathers.docx.
5. Articles for Posttribulationism to Consider | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES
6. Mr. Grant on "The Darby Brethren"
7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller
8. Anthony Norris Groves - Borivali Assembly

Further Links

The "Darby Brethren"
Mr. Newton and the "Brethren"
WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: LEE BRAINARD AND TOM HUGHES: PRETRIB DISHONESTY
* Heresy in the Heartland: C. I. Scofield: Scoundrel, Shyster, and Scalawag

ANDY WOODS FLOGGING A DEAD HORSE: APOSTASIA 2 THESSALONIANS 2:3

RAPTURE or NOT? That is the question!

There is no evidence to support the claim that ἀποστασία in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a physical departure i.e. the rapture. A wide range of experts and even some pretrib teachers disagree with this interpretation. Woods has no further evidence to add to this overcooked argument, so why does he rake it up again?   

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion (apostasia) comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.  (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4). 

Blue Letter Bible: "ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ('apostasy'):—falling away, forsake."1 

Liddel and Scott: "ἀποστασία late form of ἀπόστασις defection."2  

During Alan Kurschner's debate with Thomas Ice in 2015, Kurschner attempted to settle this false claim once and for all. It was like pulling teeth, but eventually, Ice admitted that he could not provide any evidence to support this interpretation.  

Kurschner: "I just want to reaffirm here. You’re just mention that apostasia can refer to a physical departure, but you’re not able to produce a single instance in all of Koine Greek literature that apostasia ever means a physical departure. Is that correct?"

Ice: "I’m not able but Wayne House was."

Kurschner: "Okay. But you’re not able to give us what Wayne House…"

Ice: "I can’t give it to you here."  (Debate Transcript p. 57-58).3 

The "Wayne House" document provides no definitive evidence that ἀποστασία refers to a physical departure as in the rapture.4 Some early translations interpreted ἀποστασία as "departure", but in context, this refers to a departure from the faith. As Kurschner points out, the noun ἀποστασία in Koine Greek never refers to physical departure, it always refers to political or religious defection. 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is a classic prewrath passage. Paul explains to the Thessalonians that "the day of the Lord" i.e. the Lord's wrath will not come unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed. (2 Thessalonians 2:3 cf. Matthew 24:10). There are thirty parallels between Jesus' teaching in the Olivet Discourse and Paul’s teaching in Thessalonians.5

The day of the Lord's wrath (orgé) is specifically tied to the trumpet and bowl judgements which do not occur until after the great tribulation. (Matthew 24:29 cf. Revelation 6:17; Revelation 8-9,15-16; Isaiah 13:9; Zephaniah 1:14-15 2 Peter 3:10). 

Andy Woods is highly regarded and well-buttressed by the pretrib camp. However, he is not beyond the reach of the Lord! Woods and other pretrib teachers should consider the devastating effects of this doctrine on the final generation of believers. It is likely that many pretrib believers will "fall away" due to failed expectations of deliverance from the great tribulation. (Matthew 24:10). Tragically, Olivier Melnick has come out of Judaism only to fall for the false pretrib rapture. How will Woods, Melnick, and others answer to the Lord on the day of judgement for leading many believers into apostasy? I fear for all those deceived by this false doctrine and I also fear for pretrib teachers themselves. But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned. (Matthew 12:36-37 cf. Romans 14:12).

The failing reputation of the pretrib camp 

Examples: 

* Lee Brainard's recent denial of imminence and his defective research into the early Church Fathers.6 

* Failed marriage counselor and spiritual abuser Jimmy Evans of Daystar infamy is "transitioning" out of XO Marriage and intends to devote himself to endtimes.com full-time. I have reported on the murky world of Jimmy Evans in previous posts. Evans' uptake of the name Endtimes Ministries is a usurpation of a completely different ministry called Endtime Ministries. Evans' subsequent unethical takeover of Endtime Ministries slot on Daystar is unsurprising given his previous ungodly behaviour.
* Mark Hitchcock is closely associated with Jimmy Evans and has recently endorsed him as an "expert".7

* Mark Hitchcock's recent claim that he has discovered "new evidence" of the pretrib rapture in Irenaeus is a regurgitation of old false claims.7

* Hitchcock and Evans recently promoted their new book together.8

* Prophecy Watchers give a platform to false teachers such as Jonathan Cahn who claims to be "prophetic", "Reverend" Donna Howell, Nephilim "expert" LA Marzulli, "prophecy expert" and speculator Bill Salus, and of course, disgraced spiritual abuser Jimmy Evans. 9 

* Prophecy Watchers are closely associated with Daystar.9 

* Jack Hibbs' shocking endorsement of NAR "apostolic leader" Che Ahn and his continued support of Daystar.9 

* Date setter JD Farag predicted that the rapture would occur before the 25th of September 2023.10 

* Don Stewart continues to churn out prophecy updates despite his adulterous marriage.11

* Andy Woods credibility issues! Alan Kurschner's strong rebuttal against Andy Woods' "lies" and "evasion of significant arguments" in 2018.12  

Critically the pretrib rapture fails the test of the scriptures and is based on the teachings of cult leader John Nelson Darby and defective "Left Behind" theology. (1 John 4:1). 

1. G646 - apostasia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
2. Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon, ἀποστασία
3. Microsoft Word - Rapture Debate_Alan Kurschner, Thomas Ice Transcript 1.1.docx
4. The “Departure” (Rapture) Seen In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 | Art Licursi
5. 9 Reasons Why the Rapture and Resurrection Occur AFTER the Great Tribulation (Rapture Talks) | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES
6. Pretribulation Lee Brainard REDEFINES Imminence to Mean Signs Must Happen Before the Rapture
    Replying to Audio Clips from Lee Brainard’s “Imminence Under Attack”
    WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: Lee Brainard
7. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: PRETRIB RAPTURE: MARK HITCHCOCK'S FAKE DISCOVERY AND ENDORSEMENT OF JIMMY EVANS!
8. Pre-Trib Proof! | Tipping Point with Jimmy Evans
9. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: MICHAEL GRANT'S QUESTION: WHY ARE "GOOD" TEACHERS STAYING AT DAYSTAR?
10. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: CRAZED CULT LEADER JD FARAG PREDICTS THE RAPTURE BEFORE 25TH SEPTEMBER 2023
11. Scattered Sheep: January 20, 2012 Show: My Perspective on Don Stewart

12. What Andy Woods Is Not Telling You about 'the Apostasy' in 2 Thess 2:3 - Ep. 121 | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES

ANDY WOODS: REVELATION 3:10 DOES NOT SUPPORT THE PRETRIB RAPTURE

 One Verse That Proves the Pretrib Rapture | Andy Woods

Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. (Revelation 3:10).

Mondo Gonzales (Prophecy Watchers) and Andy Woods discuss Revelation 3:10 and its alleged affirmation of the pretrib rapture of the church. 

Woods homes in on the Greeek τηρήσω ἐκ "I will keep {you} out of". There are two issues to consider 1 the context and the definition of "the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world"; 2 the application of τηρήσω ἐκ to Revelation 3:10 and John 17:15.

Gonzales and Woods make the assumption that "the hour of trial" is the tribulation, but this interpretation is problematic. The great tribulation applies to believers, whereas "the hour of trial" will come upon the whole world i.e. the earth dwellers. During the tribulation, believers are called to perseverance during a period of unprecedented persecution and martyrdom. (Matthew 24:13; Revelation 3:8). The hour of trial is the direct wrath of God (the day of the Lord's wrath) that comes upon the whole world after the great tribulation. (Revelation 6:17; Matthew 24:29). The churches in Philadelphia and Smyrna are faithful and do not receive a rebuke from the Lord. Philadelphia is promised:  I will keep you from the hour of trial.. whereas Smyrna is given the conditional promise: The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death. (Revelation 2:9-11). The severe warnings pronounced against the compromising churches are prefixed by "I have this against you". One can only assume that unfaithful churches i.e. those who compromise will suffer the wrath of God along with the world unless they repent. (Revelation 2:5,16,21-22,3:3,16). Revelation 3:10 is addressed more fully by Alan Kurschner: Revelation 3:10 Archives | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES          

Woods addresses the well-known objection to the theory that Revelation 3:10 refers to a pretrib rapture. He cites John 17:15 where the same construction τηρήσω ἐκ is used. Since John was the author of the Gospel of John and the Book of Revelation and both are direct quotes from Jesus, it is reasonable to interpret τηρήσω ἐκ similarly to affirm the idea that Revelation 3:10 means literally to“keep from” rather than "preserve through".

John 17:15 consists of two phrases:

I do not ask that you take them out of the world (ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου)

but (ἀλλ’) that you keep (τηρήσῃς) them from the evil {one}. (John 17:15).

Woods: "What people do is they look at the wrong object. The ἐκ and τηρήσω go with the evil one, not with the world."  ?? Gonzales and Woods profess to be skilled in the original languages, but I am hesitant about accepting Woods' interpretation of John 17:15. I do not claim to be an expert in biblical Greek, but I would read this verse differently. The object of the first phrase is the world and ἀλλ’ is the conjunction. In my view, the reading of John 17:15 is that Jesus rejects taking His followers out of the world (ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου), in favour of the contrasting course i.e. to keep (τηρήσῃς) them from evil (or the evil one). I do not think this verse refers to the rapture; rather it seems to have the sense of the Lord's prayer "deliver us from evil" (Matthew 6:13 cf. 2 Thessalonians 3:3; 1 John 5:18). 

Ellicott: "We have to bear in mind also that the present passage occurs in the second 'Lord's Prayer,' and that His prayer for them may with probability be interpreted in the same sense as the words in which He taught them to pray. On the whole, therefore, it seems likely, but yet is by no means certain, that we ought to read here, 'that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one.'" 1 

Strong's: The Greek conjunction 'ἀλλά' (alla) is used to denote contrast or exception. It is often translated as 'but,' 'rather,' or 'on the contrary' in English. This word serves to introduce a statement that contrasts with or opposes what has been previously mentioned. It is a critical conjunction in Greek for clarifying distinctions and emphasizing differences in thought or action.2  

Two examples of ἀλλά

Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but (ἀλλὰ) a sword. (Matthew 10:34). 

Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but (ἀλλὰ) seventy-seven times. (Matthew 18:22).

Woods' faulty definition of the tribulation is a huge problem. There is a clear distinction in the scriptures between tribulation (thlipsis) and wrath (orgé). Woods' denial of the critical information that God's direct wrath begins after the tribulation is a disturbing contradiction of the scriptures.

Immediately after the tribulation (thlipsin) of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31).

When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath (orgēs) has come, and who can stand?” (Revelation 6:12-17).

The following verses quoted by Woods allegedly teach a pretrib rapture. 

Do not let your hearts be troubled. (John 14:1-4). 

Therefore encourage one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 413-18).  

For Woods, if these verses do not indicate a pretrib rapture "..it is not much of a comfort." Citing individual verses as evidence of a pretrib rapture is irresponsible and dangerous. These verses/passages do not specify the timing of the rapture and critically not one verse in the bible teaches a pretrib rapture. The call to faith is a tough call! Believers are repeatedly warned about the extreme cost of discipleship. (Luke 14:27-28; Matthew 24:9; John 16:2-3; Acts 14:22; 2 Timothy 3:12; 1 Peter 4:12-14; 1 John 13:13 etc.) 

The pretrib rapture fallacy is likely to have severe repercussions for the body of Christ and I am aghast that Woods and others shamelessly persist in promoting it. Woods et al are so entrenched that they have created an almost impenetrable stronghold. (2 Corinthians 10:4-5; Ephesians 6:12). I pray and hope they will humble themselves before the Lord and repent before it is too late. (1 John 4:1).  

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. (Revelation 22:18-19).

A further word of caution 

Prophecy Watchers give a platform to false teachers such as Jonathan Cahn who claims to be "prophetic", "Reverend" Donna Howell, and recently disgraced spiritual abuser Jimmy Evans.4 Prophecy Watchers are closely involved with and are tainted by the heretical TV network Daystar.3  Prophecy Watchers: "A NEW DAY is dawning at our ministry. After the TBN building and studio acquisition … after Daystar Television accepted our program.."5 This is a severe compromise and smacks of the NAR! Like many false ministries, Prophecy Watchers constantly peddle their merchandise. (2 Corinthians 2:17). Several pretrib teachers appear on Daystar including LA Marzuli, Bill Salus, Billy Crone, Tom Hughes, David Jeremiah, and Jack Hibbs who endorses Che Ahn!6 Jack Hibbs' unbiblical response to Michael Grant when challenged about his compromise and the doctrine of separation is very telling: They Actually Responded & It Wasn't Good IMHO (My Take on the Situation) Unfortunately Andy Woods seems willing to sacrifice almost anything on the altar of the pretrib rapture! (1 Thessalonians 5:22; Romans 16:17-18).

  

1. John 17:15 Commentaries: "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
2. Strong's Greek: 235. ἀλλά (alla) -- but, rather, on the contrary
3. Shows | Daystar Television
4 .Jimmy Evans: A Line in the Sand - The Prophecy Watchers
5. Meet the New Co-Host of Prophecy Watchers!
6. Jack Hibbs Endorses NAR Che Ahn l HR1154 "Conspir@cy The0rists" bill l Temple on earth @ FOT timing

ANDY WOODS "CORRECTION" OF JOHN RICH + TUCKER CARLSON: TAKEDOWN OF PRETRIB RAPTURE

Tucker Carlson and John Rich Tackle the Pre-Trib Rapture! (youtube.com)

Olivier Melnick and Andy Woods have attempted but ultimately failed to prop up the "Holy Grail" of pretribulationalism during their "correction" of John Rich following his recent interview with Tucker Carlson: John Rich: Donald Trump, the Darkness of Eminem’s New Album, and the Song Inspired by God (youtube.com) 

Rich comes from a Christian background and is a country singer. His interview with Carlson came on the back of the success of his song "Revelation", inspired by the prophecies of John the Revelator about the future and the return of Jesus Christ.1 The interview has rattled the pretrib rapture camp and provoked Andy Woods, Olivier Melnick, Lee Brainard, and others to react negatively.2  

Woods: (regarding Tucker Carlson) "..but you start to see a pattern. First you see Munther Isaac.. then a month or two later you see this guy who is trying to trash the pretrib rapture.. Either he or his producer or whoever is intentionally giving platforms to people that are trying to tear down the Zionist dispensational understanding.." Melnick and Woods are expecting too much of Tucker Carlson. As far as I am aware, Carlson is not a Christian, although he is evidently reading the scriptures and exploring different views. We cannot reasonably expect non-Christians to have a theologically sound view of Romans 9. (1 Corinthians 9:12).

The Scofield Bible 

Andy Woods proceeded to "rectify" John Rich's claim that the Scofield Bible was the first study Bible including study notes ever made. Technically Woods is right, but he is splitting hairs. The first full edition of the Geneva Bible (1575) predates the first Scofield Reference Bible (1909) by more than three hundred years. However, the Scofield Reference Bible is generally considered to be innovative. It is described by Got Questions as "..the first of its kind—an annotated Bible designed to aid the reader in understanding the text."3 Wikipedia: "The Scofield Bible had several innovative features. Most important, it printed what amounted to a commentary on the biblical text alongside the Bible instead of in a separate volume, the first to do so in English since the Geneva Bible (1560)."4  I think we can overlook John Rich's peccadillo since the Geneva Bible with its Calvinist slant was controversial and was not well received in the UK, especially by King James, who considered the notes to be subversive due to their political undertones. In contrast, the Scofield Bible was widely accepted and has had a huge impact on modern evangelicalism.

John Nelson Darby

Woods "John Darby was very godly man and he was I believe part of the Plymouth Brethren Movement he started churches really all over the place.. he was a top notch scholar.."  (15:18 mark)  I have no argument with those who assert Darby's intelligence; however his character is an altogether different matter! Much has been written about Darby from varying perspectives, but it is irrefutable that Darby was the cause of much consternation by Bible scholars and leaders of his time and was considered arrogant and self-willed. 

Brethren leaders George Müller, Anthony Groves, and Benjamin Newton suffered intensely at the hands of Darby, who would broker no opposition to his sectarian views. Darby would not even tolerate anyone who wished to remain neutral. Darby's response to ANY opposition was to simply annihilate it. Those who disagreed with him were excommunicated. Why? - Because according to Darby, the Lord had personally revealed dispensational hermeneutics to him directly. In his own eyes, this made him 'right' and gave him liberty to butcher the body of Christ. It is difficult to argue against anyone with such obvious forcefulness, intelligence and powers of intimidation.5 

Charles Spurgeon: "Mr. Darby is, to all intents and purposes a thorough Pope, though under a Protestant name. He will never admit that he is in error; and therefore very naturally declines to argue with those who controvert the soundness of his views. How, indeed, could it be otherwise? If Mr. Darby holds, which he does, with a firm grasp, the principle that whatever conclusions he and those acting in conjunction with him may come to, express beyond all question the mind of the Spirit; and if those Darbyites who gather together in London, can go so far as to exclude all other denominations, even the most godly among them, 'believing themselves to be the one or only, assembly of God in London,' how need we feel surprised that Mr. Darby, as the 'prophet, priest, and king' of the party, should exercise a perfect despotism within the domains of Darbyism?"6 

George Müller: "Scripture declares plainly that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostasy shall have taken place, and the man of sin shall have been revealed..."7 

Borivali Assembly: "He (Anthony Groves) became increasingly concerned with the drift of the Plymouth Brethren towards sectarianism under the leadership of Darby and aligned himself with George Müller when the brethren split in 1848 to form the Open Brethren and Exclusive Brethren."8

The secret rapture

Woods further "correction" of Rich for using the term "secret rapture" is illegitimate.

Woods: "When someone uses the expression 'secret rapture' it shows me that they are really not doing original research. They are just sort of reading what someone else said. I think that's what Mr Rich did in that video. I think he has hooked into certain.. anti-dispensational authors. Because when you take the Bible at face value there is nothing secretive about it.."   (22:00 mark)

The expression "secret rapture" was employed by Darby and was a common expression within the "Left Behind" (Tim LaHaye) pretrib camp. It is only relatively recently that the pretrib camp have backtracked and no longer use this expression for the obvious reason that it is false. It is illegitimate to accuse Rich of doing poor research or using anti-dispensational material for his information as Woods suggested.

To quote one of Woods heroes Thomas Ice: "Darby introduced the concept of a secret rapture to take place ‘at any moment’, a belief which subsequently became one of the chief hallmarks of Brethren eschatology.. Ernest Sandeen tells us: Darby’s view of the premillennial advent contrasted with that held by the historicist millenarian school in two ways. First, Darby taught that the second advent would be secret, an event sensible only to those who participated in it. . . . There were, in effect, two 'second comings' in Darby’s eschatology. The church is first taken from the earth secretly and then, at a later time, Christ returns in a public second advent as described in Matthew 24.9 

Alan Kurschner: An older expression in pretribulational literature—and can still be used occasionally today—is secret coming or secret rapture. From my exposure to older pretrib and non-pretrib literature, it seemed to be used synonymous with the expressions signless coming or signless rapture, in contrast to an announced coming or announced rapture."10

The term "rapture"

Woods: "This idea that the word 'rapture' is not in the Bible. I mean that's just so silly; I can't believe people even use that argument anymore."

It is important to note that Rich described the prewrath rapture of the church, he did not deny the rapture. Rich did his best to articulate the difficult subject of eschatology to a mixed audience, including those who were perhaps unfamiliar with the term "rapture". Woods seemed to make the assumption that everyone in Carlson's audience was familiar with Christianese.

Rich: "..the word 'rapture' is nowhere in the Bible. It talks about us being caught up with him and pulled out of here, and then the ultimate wrath is poured out on this planet. That's what we call the rapture, but that's not in debate. The question is what happens leading up to that? It's a good question to ask right? For some reason nobody ever preaches that. They don't want to talk about what happens prior to it.. "11 

The myth that the pretrib rapture was taught prior to Darby    

   

Woods and other pretrib teachers are determined to propagate the myth that Darby's rapture teaching predates the 1800s. Frankly, they should abandon the idea of inventing fallacious "evidence" which is repeatedly debunked. Darby himself claimed that the Lord had personally revealed dispensational hermeneutics to him directly. The resulting furore from Darby's peers is testimony that the pretrib rapture had not been previously articulated.

Darby: "..what God has with infinite graciousness revealed to me concerning His dealing with the Church... it was in this the Lord was pleased, without man's teaching, first to open my eyes on this subject, that I might learn His will concerning it throughout."12

Woods: "To my knowledge there are probably around forty discovered pre-Darby pretribulation rapture statements.. I do remember the Pseudo Ephraem discovery.."

For the umpteenth time, there are no early sources prior to 1830 that articulate a pretrib rapture. Pseudo Ephraem has been repeatedly debunked as a pretrib document by reliable Bible scholars. The author of Pseudo Ephraem placed the rapture event after the Antichrist's arrival. I have added some links that demonstrate this at the end of the post. When you are dealing with dishonest scholarship there is no hope of meaningful discussion.   

Andy Woods: "Even if John Rich is right on 1830, who cares. The rapture doctrine is found in the Bible."

The rapture doctrine is found in the Bible; the pretrib rapture doctrine is not found in the Bible!

Melnick and Woods' pettiness paid off in one respect ~ they managed to catch Rich out in one error to their obvious delight. Rich was in error when he said that the word "Antichrist" does not exist within the Bible. The word Antichrist can be found in 1 John 2:18, 224:3 2 John 1:7. (35:00 mark) This is the only legitimate criticism they have against Rich.  

Woods: "Lets just pretend that Scofield and Darby were just horrible people. All the mud about them and slander about them is true. Well that doesn't change the fact that the pretrib rapture is wrong. Because you can't demolish an idea by trying to link it to a source and discrediting the source when the truth of it is found in God's Word." 

The character of church leaders and teachers is critically important biblically. (1 Timothy 3:1-7). We should have learned throughout the murky history of the church age that when anyone presents a novel doctrine caution is advised. (1 John 4:1). Both Darby and Scofield were very dark characters. Scofield's history is shocking. Wikipedia: "During the early 1890s, Scofield began styling himself Rev. C. I. Scofield, D.D.; but there are no extant records of any academic institution having granted him the honorary Doctor of Divinity degree.13 Furthermore Scofield was a self-confessed heavy drinker and he abandoned his wife and two daughters and married another woman. He faced criminal charges of fraud and embezzlement between 1877 and 1879, even after his alleged conversion, and he served at least one jail sentence.14 In short, Scofield had no business setting himself up as a Bible scholar/teacher! (1 Timothy 3:2,7; Acts 6:3; 2 Timothy 2:15; James 3:1). Woods' claim that pretrib rapture is found in God's Word is unreliable and highly disputed. There is not one clear verse in the scriptures that backs up a pretrib rapture! 

The lie of pretribulationism is one of the greatest scandals within Western Evangelicalism of our time. Pretrib leaders have accepted the lie and are sticking to it no matter what evidence to the contrary is presented to them. (Thessalonians 2:11). Woods' obfuscations and half-truths are worthy of any blatant false teacher and his Pharisaic attack upon Rich tells us more about Woods than Rich. 

The tactics of pretrib leaders: "..never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it."15  

Not only does Woods knowingly persist in promoting the false pretrib rapture doctrine despite its defects, he does not believe in repentance as it relates to salvation, and he also promotes the false doctrine of once saved always saved (OSAS). These are very serious errors that put both him and his followers in a very precarious position before Jesus Christ. 

  . 

1. John Rich - Revelation (feat Sonya Isaacs) (youtube.com)
2. Tucker Carlson, John Rich, and the Rapture (youtube.com)
3. What is the Scofield Reference Bible? | GotQuestions.org
4. Scofield Reference Bible - Wikipedia
5. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: berean call conference 2015: paul wilkinson's divisive pre-tribulation delusion!!! (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
6. http://spurgeon.org/s_and_t/dbreth.htm
7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller
8. Anthony Norris Groves - Borivali Assembly
9. Ice-2-PTRC 2011 (pre-trib.org)
10. The Meaning of 'Secret' in the Pretribulational Rapture Expression 'the Secret Coming of Christ' | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES (alankurschner.com)
11. John Rich: Donald Trump, the Darkness of Eminem’s New Album, and the Song Inspired by God (youtube.com)

12. Reflections Upon The Prophetic Inquiry And The Views Advanced In It | Plymouth Brethren Writings
13. C. I. Scofield - Wikipedia
14. Scofield, Cyrus Ingerson (tshaonline.org)
15. Joseph Goebbels On the “Big Lie” (jewishvirtuallibrary.org)

Further Links

Writings & Arguments Against Actions and Doctrines of John Darby – The TRUTH SOURCE
Pseudo-Ephraem Is NOT a Pretribulation Document | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES (alankurschner.com)
Pseudo-Ephraem.pdf (alankurschner.com)
WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: PSEUDO-EPHRAEM TAUGHT PRETRIB - NOT! BY DAVE MACPHERSON (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)

ANDY WOODS' CHEAP SHOT AT THE PREWRATH RAPTURE!

(1) If You Only Knew | with Tom Hughes & Dr. Andy Woods - YouTube

In this episode of Hope For Our Times, rabid pre-trib teacher Andy Woods of Sugar Land Bible Church takes a cheap shot at the prewrath rapture. Woods argues that wrath (orgē) and tribulation (thlipsis) are synonyms in Romans 2:8-9. (27:00 mark). Since orgē and thlipsis are not synonymous anywhere else in the New Testament, why would these particular verses be an exception? Woods accuses the prewrath camp of playing a "semantic game". This accusation is very rich coming from the man who interprets apostasia as the rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, but I digress. (See Further Links) 

Woods: "..Romans 2:8-9 says 'tribulations' and 'wrath', those two words can overlap each other, even though they are different words.. Just because they are different words doesn't mean that they are compartmentalized the way that the prewrath rapture crowd have it.. So this kind of a semantic game you hear from a lot of these so-called prewrath rapturists.. That is what I am seeing in Revelation 6. I don't have to see the word 'wrath' right away to understand it's God's wrath because I know there is an overlap of tribulations and wrath when you study Romans 2 verses 8 and 9.. The prewrathers want to keep these things compartmentalized, but Romans 2 verses 8 and 9 won't let you do that. There is a semantic overlap in those words.. ..that overlap is what you do not see acknowledged by the prewrath rapturists, because they try to pretend like the initial judgements are really not done by Jesus, but by Satan or man, even though Jesus is obviously causing them by opening the seven-sealed scroll.. The compartmentalization that the prewrathers want isn't there as neatly and nicely as they make it sound." 

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath (orgē) for yourself on the day of wrath (orgē) when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath (orgē) and fury (thumos). There will be tribulation (thlipsis) and distress (stenochōria) for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:5-11).

Romans 2:8-9 incorporates two separate pairs of descriptive nouns. There is an overlap between orgē and thumos, and also between thlipsis and stenochōria, but the two clauses are separate. 

orgé (wrath) anger, wrath, passion; punishment, vengeance fury.. {1}

thumos fury, anger, an outburst of passion, wrath. {2} 

thlipsis (tribulation) distress anguish and grief.. {3} 

stenochōria a narrow space, great distress, anguish. {4}

Thlipsis indicates suffering/distress/anguish/grief/persecution/affliction. e.g. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings (thlipsis), knowing that suffering (thlipsis) produces endurance.. (Romans 5:3 cf. Acts 14:2; Romans 8:35; 12:12; Revelation 2:9-10 etc.)

The two separate pairs of descriptive nouns in Romans 2:8-9 are intentionally evocative. Thlipsis and stenochōria communicate additional details regarding the full horrors in store for the unrighteous. Those who obey unrighteousness will be subject to God's wrath and fury i.e. judgement/punishment/vengeance.. (Romans 2:5,8 cf. Psalm 78:49). This punishment will involve or consist of tribulation/anguish/grief/distress.. (Romans 2:9). Paul's various expressions of wrath and tribulation emphasize the terrible fate of the unrighteous in graphic detail.

The context of the great tribulation

Jesus Christ Himself gives the parameters that define the great tribulation in the Olivet discourse. The great tribulation will begin immediately following the abomination of desolation event when the Antichrist takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. And let no one in the field return for his cloak. How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. For at that time there will be great tribulation, (thlipsis) unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.(Matthew 24:15-21)

Immediately after the tribulation (thlipsis) of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.. (Matthew 24:29-31).

As Woods affirms, the 70th week of Daniel is initiated by the opening of the seven-sealed scroll by Jesus Christ. However, the prewrath view does not define this period as the day of wrath as mentioned in Romans 2:5. The wrath of God is described variously as the day of the Lord, the great day of Their wrath, the great and the terrible day of the LORD etc. and is often alluded to as "that day". The day of the Lord is God's direct intervention from heaven. The wrath of God will begin after the tribulation and will follow the cosmic disturbances and the rapture. (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 5:9). 

Andy Woods repeated a comment I have heard him make previously. He remarked glibly that if they are wrong about bible prophecy: "we will have to redraw our prophecy charts." (23:00 mark) He and Tom Hughes were actually making a joke about this! When the time comes, I think it will be a bit more serious than that! (Matthew 12:36; 2 Corinthians 2:17; 2 Timothy 2:15; James 3:1). Frankly, the repercussions for pre-trib rapture teachers will be very serious indeed ~ their charts will be the last thing on their minds. (Luke 17:1). Tom Hughes (Hope For Our Times) regularly parades various prophecy teachers whose prophetic speculations are an unhelpful distraction. For instance, Bill Salus' various "Now" speculations; {5} Lee Brainard's distortion of the early Church Fathers; {6} adulterer Don Stewart who is disqualified; {7} not to mention innumerable Gog/Magog speculations, including Woods' isolated two-phase view. {8} Bible teachers should be preparing believers to stand during the great tribulation, but pre-trib teachers are doing the very opposite by raising false hopes and making jokes! It is likely that many believers may actually fall away because of this wicked teaching! (Matthew 24:10). Tom Hughes and his pre-trib friends are setting up believers for a terrible fall. If anyone is guilty of playing "semantic games" it is Andy Woods and his associates! (2 Timothy 3:13).

1. Strong's Greek: 3709. ὀργή (orgé) -- impulse, wrath (biblehub.com)
2. Strong's Greek: 2372. θυμός (thumos) -- passion (biblehub.com)
3. Strong's Greek: 2347. θλῖψις (thlipsis) -- tribulation (biblehub.com)
4. Strong's Greek: 4730. στενοχωρία (stenochória) -- narrowness of space, fig. difficulty (biblehub.com)
5. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: BILL SALUS: GOG MAGOG DANGEROUS SPECULATIONS (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
6. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: LEE BRAINARD''S PHONY TRANSLATION OF EUSEBIUS DOES NOT PROVE THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE! (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
7. Scattered Sheep: January 20, 2012 Show: My Perspective on Don Stewart (scatteredsheepreport.blogspot.com)
8. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: ANDY WOODS: GOG MAGOG TWO-PHASE VIEW (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)

Further Links

WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: apostasia: rebellion or rapture? thomas ice pre-tribulation rapture trickery!
WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION FALLACY (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
(bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: Rapture (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
(2) 7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture (Full Movie) - YouTube

BILL SALUS # JOEL ROSENBERG # ANDY WOODS: PROPHETIC EISEGESIS

Two major players within the pre-trib camp are Mark Hitchcock and Andy Woods. Woods recently debunked various speculations regarding alleged unfulfilled "Now/Next" Old Testament prophecies in his series The Middle East Meltdown. Woods' main source is Mark Hitchcock's book Showdown with Iran Appendix 1 and 2, in which he explains why certain Old Testament prophecies, specifically: Elam (Jeremiah 49:34-39; Ezekiel 32:24-25); Damascus (Isaiah 17:1-2; Jeremiah 49:23-27) and Psalm 83 are not futuristic prophecies. Woods took a deep dive into this subject and he delivered a stinging rebuttal against various "prophecy experts" including Bill Salus and Joel Rosenberg, who for the most part have been left unchecked in their bid to sell their wares to the Body of Christ. (2 Corinthians 2:17).

Unfortunately, Hitchock and Woods have so far missed the elephant in the room, namely, the false hope of a pre-tribulation rapture. It is a constant source of amazement to me that intelligent bible scholars believe in and support the pre-trib rapture. Thankfully a number of believers are now ditching the pre-trib theory in favour of the prewrath position. {1} Additionally, their alleged timing of the Gog/Magog war in Ezekiel 38 and 39 has serious issues. The reference to "unwalled villages" in Ezekiel 38:10 is highly problematic when applied to our own time period. It makes much more sense to take these chapters literally together with Revelation 20:7-10 i.e. this prophecy will be fulfilled at the end of the millennium as the scriptures indicate. Woods' promotion of the obscure "two-phase theory" regarding Ezekiel 38 and 39, including a bizarre connection to Ronald Reagan, is not supported by any other bible scholar. {2}

Woods' critique of the "Now/Next prophecies" is summarized below.

(1) The Middle East Meltdown 26. Ezekiel 38-39 - Q&A 7. Dr. Andy Woods. 8-7-22. - YouTube

Summary: 

Jeremiah 49:34-38 refers to Elam (Persia/Iran) and was fulfilled in the 6th century BC by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.
Jeremiah 49:39 is eschatological.
Ezekiel 32:24-25 is a lament concerning Pharoah king of Egypt ~ Pharaoh will go down to the pit (the depths of the earth/Sheol) where he will see Assyria, Elam, Meshech and Tubal, Edom, and the Sidonians. The destruction of Egypt was fulfilled in 663 and 571 BC.

(1) The Middle East Meltdown 27. Ezekiel 38-39 - Q&A 8. Dr. Andy Woods. 8-21-22. - YouTube

Summary: 

Isaiah 17:1-2 is the oracle concerning the destruction of Damascus in Syria. This prophecy was fulfilled in 732 BC by Tilgath-Pilneser, the king of the neo-Assyrian empire. The fulfillment of this prophecy is described in Isaiah 37:36 and 2 Kings 19:35.

Debunked: Rosenberg's claim that Isaiah's prophecy against Damascus was given to him in 715 BC. In the year that King Ahaz died came this oracle: ( Isaiah 14:28-32). The oracle that Rosenberg refers to is limited to Philistia; it does not refer to Damascus, or to any other of the nations listed in Isaiah's oracles against the nations. (Isaiah 13-23). 

(2) The Middle East Meltdown 29. Ezekiel 38-39 - Q&A 10. Dr. Andy Woods. 9-4-22. - YouTube

Summary:

Jeremiah 49:23-27 was written about a hundred years after Isaiah and it should not be regarded as the same prophecy as Isaiah 17:1-2. The evidence: And I will kindle a fire in the wall of Damascus, and it shall devour the strongholds of Ben-hadad. (Jeremiah 49:27). "The fortresses of Ben-Hadad ('Ben-Hadad' lit., 'son of [the god] Hadad') was the name of the dynasty that ruled Damascus in the ninth and eighth centuries. (cf. 1 Kings 15:18,20; 20:1-34; 2 Kings 6:24;8:7; 13:3,24..)"  It is likely that this prophecy was fulfilled during the reign of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon when he conquered Aram or Syria. The dominant aggressor in the passages surrounding Jeremiah 49:23-27 is King Nebuchadnezzar: Jeremiah 46:1,13,25-26 The word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah the prophet concerning the nations. (plural) beginning with Egypt. The army of Pharaoh Neco was defeated by Nebuchadnezzar in the fourth year of Jehoiakim. Jeremiah 49:28-33: Nebuchadnezzar's defeat of Kedar and Hazor immediately follows the judgement on Damascus in Jeremiah 49:23-27. 

(5) The Middle East Meltdown 30. Ezekiel 38-39 - Q&A 11. Dr. Andy Woods. 9-11-21. Psalm 83 War? - YouTube

Summary:

Psalm 83 is Asaph's imprecatory prayer against Israel's enemies in 950 BC, it is not a prophecy. No war or battle is found in Psalm 83. Other imprecatory prayers are not prophetic. 

The Response from Bill Salus and Mondo Gonzales (Prophecy Watchers)

(3) The Isaiah 17 Misconception | Bill Salus - YouTube
(3) Prophecy Update | Why Jeremiah’s Iran Prophecy is Unfulfilled - YouTube

Are Jeremiah 49:34-39 and Ezekiel 38 the same event? What about Psalm 83? (prophecydepotministries.net)

In the above videos Salus advises his audience to be Bereans. In fact that is precisely what Hitchock and Woods have facilitated, and in my view, they have demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt that these things are not so. (Acts 17:11 cf. 1 John 1:4). My own independent studies agree with the research done by Hitchock, and on this occasion Woods has done the Body of Christ a service in exposing these questionable speculations. (Ephesians 5:11). {3} Nevertheless his pre-trib eisegesis is a deplorable misapplication of God's word. There is no doubt in my mind that the "Now/Next prophecies" are contrived, and that Salus and others have taken advantage of the inherent complexities within certain Old Testament passages in order to manipulate them to their own advantage. (2 Corinthians 4:2). 

Mondo Gonzalez misapplies the meaning of "adding or taking away from the word of God" (Deuteronomy 4:2; Revelation 22:18-19). Gonzales: "Having a different interpretation of these prophecies is not adding to the word of God.. That's a pretty serious slanderous label simply to put on somebody, and to say that because they disagree, all of a sudden they are adding to the word."  Salus and Gonzalez claim that the discussion centers around "differences of opinion" and they object that the accusations of "adding to the word of God" does not have a place within "brotherly dialogue". There is a vast difference between friendly disagreements/discussions about minor details and serious objections about teachers who distort or falsify the word of God. Such distortions do add to the word of God. A further warning in the New Testament is not to go beyond what is written. (1 Corinthians 4:6). Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary puts it very well: "Revere the silence of Holy Writ, as much as its declarations: so you will less dogmatize on what is not expressly revealed (De 29:29)." {4} 

Problematically, and despite their denials, Salus' and Rosenberg's so-called "opinions" are reckless speculations based on newspaper exegesis. These men sell a lot of materials, they attract many viewers, and they fill conference seats. Ironically they themselves fulfill bible prophecy: For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions.. (2 Timothy 4:3).

Gonzalez referred to Dwight Pentecost as a credible example of a scholar who believed that Jeremiah 49:23-27, 34-39 and Isaiah 17 were future prophecies that would happen during "the tribulation". Pre-trib teachers constantly make the error of referring to the first half of the 70th week of Daniel as "the tribulation". {5} Dwight Pentecost was a pre-trib scholar whose contradictory understanding of eschatology has been exposed in a PDF by Doug Eigsti. {6} 

I know that Arnold Fruchtenbaum is a very well-respected scholar within the pre-trib camp. It is worth noting however that he attends and supports the ecumenical Lausanne Movement. I did publish a link in a previous post verifying this, but I have noticed that it has been removed. {7} *I have added a link at the end of this post regarding Fruchtenbaum's blatant inaccuracies. 

As far as I can ascertain, John Walvoord did not support a future fulfillment concerning Elam in Jeremiah 49:34-38. He simply mentioned this passage in connection with other miscellaneous Old Testament prophecies. Walvoord: "The more extended prophecies as found in Isaiah 17:1-14 and Jeremiah 49:23-27 have all been fulfilled as well as the occasional references found in Isaiah 7:8; 8:4; Amos 1:3-5; 3:12; 5:27..  A brief prophecy concerning Kedar and Hazor is contained in Jeremiah 49:28-33. It is a prediction of judgment upon them at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. A similar judgment is pronounced upon Elam in Jeremiah 49:34-38." {8}  

Arno Gaebelein: "The final prediction is as to Elam. Elam was east of South Babylonia and the lower Tigris, later known as Susians. This prophecy was given at the beginning of Zedekiah’s reign. Elam became an ally of the Persian kingdom. Here her overthrow is foretold as well as her restoration 'in the latter days.'" {9} It appears to me that this quote from Gaebelein is ambiguous i.e. it is not clear to me that Gaebelein's intention was to include the overthrow and the restoration of Elam in "the latter days". Interestingly, Gaebelein viewed the Gog/Magog war as a millennial event: "The invasion will happen some time after the beastly empire with its beast head, the revived Roman empire, in its final ten kingdom form and the clay, with the little horn as leader Daniel 7:1-28; Revelation 13:1-18 and the false prophet, the personal Antichrist Revelation 13:11, etc. have been dealt with in judgment Revelation 19:19-21."  {10} 

Both Salus and Gonzales claim that the "Now/Next prophecies" are not dogmatic. Really!  Woods gave some clear examples of Rosenberg's dogmatic position in his series The Middle East Meltdown and I will not repeat them here. Below are two examples of Salus' dogmatism: 

The back cover of Salus' book The Next Prophecies: "The NEXT PROPHECIES will happen soon after The NOW PROPHECIES and the stage is presently being set for their fulfillment!" {11}

The back cover of Salus' book The Now Prophecies: The NOW Prophecies book identifies the biblical prophecies that were written centuries ago for THIS GENERATION! {12} 

In my view, the Now/Next prophecy teachers are not so very far removed from the false prophets of the NAR Movement and we should mark and avoid them. (Romans 16:17-18 cf. 1 Timothy 1:4; 2 Timothy 2:23; 2 Corinthians 2:17; 2 Peter 3:16). Salus promotes his speculations through apostate channels like TBN, God TV and Daystar. Tragically, Prophecy Watchers is not much better; their shameless merchandising does not provide a credible witness for Jesus Christ and their promotion of false teachers like Jonathan Cahn etc is highly questionable. In light of this, it is not unreasonable to ask the question: Who are these men really serving? (Matthew 6:24).

Hitchcock's research is compelling and it leaves Salus, Rosenberg et al in a very difficult position. (2 Peter 2:1). The "Now/Next prophecies" are based either on very poor exegesis or they are deliberate misapplications of the scriptures. (1 Timothy 1:4; 2 Timothy 2:23). In either case, these individuals have no business teaching the word of God. (James 3:1). The fact that there is a serious disagreement within the pre-trib camp concerning these passages is a significant development, and hopefully these problems will encourage more believers to test the spirits. (1 John 4:1).

1. Pastor: From Pre-Trib to Pre-Wrath | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES (alankurschner.com)
2. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: ANDY WOODS: GOG MAGOG TWO-PHASE VIEW (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
2. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: ANDY WOODS: RONALD REAGAN'S GOG MAGOG VIEW (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
3. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: BILL SALUS: GOG MAGOG DANGEROUS SPECULATIONS (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
4. 1 Corinthians 4 Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary (biblehub.com)
5. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION FALLACY (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
6. Microsoft Word - Imminency versus Prophecy 3.7.doc (alankurschner.com)
7. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: BILL SALUS: IS PSALM 83 PROPHETIC? (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
7. Lausanne Occasional Paper: Jewish Evangelism: A Call to the Church - Lausanne Movement
7. Evangelism / Apologetics where has it gone - UK Aplogetics Library (ukapologeticslibrary.net)
8. Chapter XV The Nations In The Millennium And The Eternal State | Walvoord.com
9. Jeremiah 49 Gaebelein's Annotated Bible (biblehub.com)
10. Ezekiel 38 Gaebelein's Annotated Bible (biblehub.com)
11. The Next Prophecies: Amazon.co.uk: Salus, Bill: 9780692176177: Books
12. The Now Prophecies: Amazon.co.uk: Salus, Bill: 9780988726079: Books

* Arnold Fruchtenbaum Archives | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES (alankurschner.com)

ANDY WOODS: RONALD REAGAN'S GOG MAGOG VIEW

(30) Pastors' Point of View (PPOV) 212. Prophecy update on Israel and Babylon. YT edit - YouTube

Whether Andy Woods is completely naïve, or whether he is amenable to say just about anything to justify his views is debatable. Woods' previous speculation on the Gog/Magog two-phase view, concocted by Harold W. Hoehner, defies sound exegesis. {1}  This view is rejected by Woods' contemporaries within the pre-trib camp, and it is not even mentioned or given houseroom by other prominent premillennialists in the prewrath or post-trib camp. 

Theology of desperation

In the above video, Woods presses the subject of Gog/Magog further with the astonishing claim that we should give validity to Ronald Reagan's views on Ezekiel 38 and 39. Woods stated that Reagan's understanding of Gog/Magog matches his own view. He went on to quote New York Times best-selling author Joel C Rosenberg, who wrote in his fictional book 'The Ezekiel Option' that Ronald Reagan was fascinated with the coming war of Gog and Magog. {2} 

Below are some excerpts from Rosenberg's website in which he outlines Reagan's views on the Gog/Magog battle.

“'In the thirty-eighth chapter of Ezekiel it says God will take the children of Israel from among the heathen [where] they’d been scattered and will gather them again in the promised land,' Reagan told Mills. 'Ezekiel says that . . . the nation that will lead all the other powers into darkness against Israel will come out of the north. What other powerful nation is to the north of Israel [besides Russia]? None. But it didn’t seem to make sense before the Russian revolution, when Russia was a Christian country. Now it does, now that Russia has become communistic and atheistic, now that Russia has set itself against God. Now it fits the description perfectly.' Reagan conceded that 'everything hasn’t fallen into place yet,' but he strongly believed the end of the Soviet empire and the second coming of Christ were increasingly close at hand..

..Reagan continued to talk about such things, as he had for many years.
I once asked Michael Reagan, the president’s son, if such accounts rang true. He confirmed that they did, noting that his father firmly believed he was living in history’s last days and thought that he might even see the return of Christ in his lifetime. 10
Ronald Reagan was a devout Christian. He was a student of the Bible. He was fascinated with end-times prophecies. He believed they were true. He talked about them with friends and colleagues. They helped shape his view that the Soviet Union, and the system of evil it advanced and perpetuated, was not long for this world. For a movie actor turned president like Ronald Reagan, the Bible was indeed the greatest story ever told. He had read the last chapter, and thus he knew for certain that a day of reckoning—a day of justice—was coming." {2}

Woods pressed the point that Ronald Reagan was a "devout Christian". However, he "forgot" to mention the widely known fact that as well as being members of the ecumenical Presbyterian Church in America, the Reagans were heavily involved with various psychics and astrologers, practices strongly condemned as an abomination in the scriptures. (Deuteronomy 18:11; Leviticus 19:31, 20:27 cf. 2 Corinthians 6:14). The Reagans had what we call a "mixture" of syncretistic religious beliefs, a position that cannot be reconciled with biblical Christianity. Reagan defined himself as a "born-again Christian", but it should be obvious to those of us who really are "born-again" that he and his wife Nancy had massive spiritual problems. Reagan was the very last person to have had an understanding of Ezekiel 38 and 39 or the timing of the Gog/Magog battle! 

Below is an article written in 2009 by Robert Melkonyan. 

The Shocking Truth About Ronald and Nancy Reagan's Use of Psychic Help

"Though shocking as the title indicates it comes out as no secret at all to the fact that the Reagan presidency was actually controlled by the cosmos astrological forces.

It is believed that the Reagan's while making very important decisions concerning the state and in the White House strongly relied on astrology as a savior. Joan Quigley who was the planner of almost all presidential travel, press conferences, including the Reagan cancer surgery was an astrologer and based the surgery on astrology. It is believed that one signing of a treaty between the U.S and the Soviet to eliminate the medium-range nuclear missiles was signed on astrological advice from Quigley: the treaty was signed on December 8, 1987 at 1.30 p.m.

When Reagan was a Governor of California, he signed a legislation that allowed licensed astrologers to practice their trade and removed them from the category of being fortune tellers. In this case there is one astrologer who became very famous just because of predicting the assassination of President Kennedy and of which was once an astrological advisor to the Reagan's too; was known as Jeane Dixon. By predicting that Reagan would become Governor of California in 1962 and later the President of The U.S, Dixon gained Reagan's favor but of which was later dropped by Nancy when she predicted that the husband Reagan would not win the presidential elections in 1976 of which was correct.

Joyce Jillson was another astrologer who helped the Reagan's in selecting the vice president from a list of seven candidates and George bush was the best candidate Jillson could offer; to her it was because Bush was a Gemini of which was the best or rather the most compatible sign-a Gemini that rhymed with Reagan who was an Aquarian.

In 1980, when Reagan commenced his campaign, Quigley predicted his succession to be President of the United States; but everything changed when there was an assassination attempt against Reagan in March 30, 1981; this is because Nancy came to learn that March 30 would be a terrible day for Reagan; Nancy learnt all this from Quigley. At this point Quigley was appointed the astrological protector for Reagan's life from being a casual astrologer friend, interestingly about this assassination is that Reagan had a deathbed vision while in the hospital.

This is when Nancy Reagan also became aware of the so called "residential Death Cycle" of which it involves Jupiter and Saturn but also known as the "Zero-year curse", this is because each and every president elected at this same time since the election of William Harrison has died while in office.

Harry Truman being a common man with principals he maintained of which we can actually see the same on Reagan. Harry being a Baptist, the Reagan's were into psychics and the Presbyterian church of America. Though Reagan opened the diplomatic relations with the Vatican for the first time and managed to put Rome and the USA on equal international ground; Harry signed the Vatican guest book as 'Harry S. Truman, Baptist." {3}

The above information can easily be verified by a number of other sources.

When bible teachers resort to blatant untruths and manipulation of the facts, it is time to reassess their honesty and competency. (1 Timothy 3:2). Woods' Gog/Magog machinations will hopefully convince his followers within the pre-trib camp to question his teachings in other areas!  

1. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: ANDY WOODS: GOG MAGOG TWO-PHASE VIEW (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
2. Fiction | Joel C. Rosenberg (joelrosenberg.com)
3. The Shocking Truth About Ronald and Nancy Reagan's Use of Psychic Help (ezinearticles.com)

Further Links

Nancy Reagan tried to cover up White House’s use of clairvoyant, documentary claims |
The IndependentHow Nancy Reagan let her astrologer control the presidency (nypost.com)
White House Confirms Reagans Follow Astrology, Up to a Point - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
Reagans Catholic Connections (catholiceducation.org)