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Thursday, 17 September 2015

berean call conference 2015: paul wilkinson's divisive pre-tribulation delusion!!!

Are we witnessing a replay of the schism between John Nelson Darby and Benjamin Wills Newton of the Plymouth Brethren in the 19th century? The recent remarks made at the Berean Call Conference by Paul Wilkinson bear an uncanny resemblance to Darby's treatment of, and vitriol towards, anyone who dared to hold a different view to himself.

John Nelson Darby (who did not believe in adult baptism) claimed to be the source of dispensational hermeneutics and the pre-tribulation delusion. Wilkinson credits Darby with "restoring this precious truth" and has obviously swallowed Darby's false claim to have discovered "new truth" or "rediscovered truth" that had been lost since the apostles (2 Timothy 3:13). Claims of direct extra-biblical revelation are of course the trade mark of many false prophets. Nevertheless, Wilkinson expects his hearers to buy into Darby's pre-tribulation delusion in spite of its obvious defects.

The dispute between Darby and Newton became intensely personal on a number of levels. Newton interpreted 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 as proof of a post tribulation, non-secret rapture. He viewed Darby's dispensational and pre-tribulation rapture teaching as "the height of speculative nonsense". The various disputes between the two men resulted in Darby accusing Newton of deception and dishonesty. These charges were investigated by the elders at Ebrington Street and were dismissed. Actually, Newton's theology was very sound, especially in comparison with Darby's unscriptural rantings. This dispute was not about straightforward non-essential theological differences at all, it was underpinned by a dark spiritual battle between darkness and light. I say this because of Darby's intense hatred, character assassination and outright rejection of anyone who disagreed with him, which was anything BUT Christian. Does this sound familiar?

Brethren leaders George Müller, Anthony Groves and Benjamin Newton suffered intensely at the hands of Darby, who would broker no opposition to his sectarian views. Darby would not even put up with anyone who wished to remain neutral. Darby's response to ANY opposition was to simply annihilate it. Those who disagreed with him were excommunicated. Why?  - Because according to Darby, the Lord had personally revealed dispensational hermeneutics to him directly. In his own eyes this made him "right" and gave him liberty to butcher the body of Christ. It is difficult to argue against against a man with such obvious forcefulness, intelligence and powers of intimidation. 

Charles Spurgeon:
"Mr. Darby is, to all intents and purposes a thorough Pope, though under a Protestant name. He will never admit that he is in error; and therefore very naturally declines to argue with those who controvert the soundness of his views. How, indeed, could it be otherwise? If Mr. Darby holds, which he does, with a firm grasp, the principle that whatever conclusions he and those acting in conjunction with him may come to, express beyond all question the mind of the Spirit; and if those Darbyites who gather together in London, can go so far as to exclude all other denominations, even the most godly among them, 'believing themselves to be the one or only, assembly of God in London,' how need we feel surprised that Mr. Darby, as the 'prophet, priest, and king' of the party, should exercise a perfect despotism within the domains of Darbyism?. . ."
http://spurgeon.org/s_and_t/dbreth.htm 

George Müller:

"Scripture declares plainly that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostasy shall have taken place, and the man of sin shall have been revealed..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller

Anthony Groves:
"He (Groves) became increasingly concerned with the drift of the Plymouth Brethren towards sectarianism under the leadership of Darby and aligned himself with George Müller when the brethren split in 1848 to form the Open Brethren and Exclusive Brethren."
http://self.gutenberg.org/article/WHEBN0005787956/Anthony%20Norris%20Groves 

Was the same divisive spirit insidiously operating at The Berean Call Conference this year? Paul Wilkinson's attempt to discredit and undermine the ministries of Joe Schimmel, Jacob Prasch and Joel Richardson in the name of "love and truth" is quite despicable, and having looked into the history, the comparison is hard to miss!
 
Paul Wilkinson (looking suitably humble):

"This DVD is damaging, it's destructive, it's dangerous, and it is thoroughly dishonest, and it is one of the most abominable Christian DVD's I have ever sat through. .....it is full of false accusations, unsubstantiated myths and lies." 

"These men sadly are not doing what every pastor and every teacher is called ultimately to do if he is faithful to the word of God...."

 "You will not hear these men talk about their love for Jesus; you will not see the tears fall down their cheeks; they will speak of the coming of the Lord very academically and very intellectually, but where is the heart, where is the love, where is the longing? It is not there. One of the reasons it is not there is that they are not pastors, they have not been called to take care of the flock, they have not been called to help prepare the bride for the bridegroom.
 
"The integrity of that man! .....it (LBOLA) is thoroughly dishonest on all kinds of levels." 

Apart from the above direct quotes, Wilkinson went into considerable detail, claiming: Joe Schimmel "tricked and deceived" Colin Le Noury (PWMI) into admitting that there is not one verse of scripture to prove a pre-tribulation theory. Realising Colin Le Noury's embarrassing blunder, their presumptuous attempt to force Joe Schimmel by dictatorial edict to omit Le Noury's quote from the LBOLA DVD failed! http://livestream.com/bereancallconference/israel2

We see a quite a different spirit operating in Joe Schimmel and Jacob Prasch:

Joe Schimmel: "This isn't something we should divide fellowship over as Christians, because we recognise that this is an in-house debate. There are wonderful, beautiful, good Christians on both sides of the issue in this debate."  LBOLA

Jacob Prasch: "We do not allow differing views as to the sequence of events preceding the rapture, or the exact point of its timing in the sequence, to become a basis for division but only for discussion."
http://www.moriel.org/component/k2/item/1709-when-will-the-rapture-take-place.html?ml=1

When they do refute the pre-tibulation delusion, Joe Schimmel and Jacob Prasch do not attempt to assassinate the ministries and reputations of those who genuinely hold this view.

Wilkinson, McMahon et'al should think long and hard about the consequences of attempting to destroy reputations and ministries over what is in fact based on nothing more than the unsanctified opinion of megalomaniac John Nelson Darby. Someone has commented that they should apologise and retract their remarks, but I see no sign of this happening any time soon.

Anonymous commented on my previous post:

"This mode of thought is deeply ingrained into their psyche, and no matter what you say to them about the fact that there is not one scripture to support the pre-trib rapture, they will not listen!"
http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/left-behind-or-led-astray-paul.html#comments

If this is correct, then I do wonder whether God has given these men over to the pre-tribulation delusion, and in light of their conduct, I also wonder whether there is a hidden agenda here (2 Thessalonians 2:11).

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.   (Galatians 5:16-25)





A Roundtable Discussion Answering Dr. Paul Wilkinson & The Berean Call 
Joe Schimmel, Jacob Prasch and John Haller:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiNjDYsHfh4&feature=youtu.be  

The Sordid History Of The Pre-Tribulation Deception
http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/thomas-ice-and-paul-wilkinson-sordid.html
 
Further Links:
https://davemosher.wordpress.com/tag/pre-trib-rapture/
http://post-trib.net/macpherson/tribpages.html
http://www.alankurschner.com/2015/09/03/dave-james-at-the-recent-berean-call-conference-gives-a-tortured-definition-of-what-prewrath-teaches/
http://nopretrib.com/an-open-letter-to-t-a-mcmahon-of-the-berean-call/
http://nopretrib.com/a-warning-from-corrie-ten-boom/
https://vimeo.com/139809424

27 comments:

Anonymous said...

I believe that you have written a truthful account, so far as I understand it to be (albeit a very short one!) of the historical faction that separated the Plymouth Brethren (originated in Dublin) into the open and exclusive groups.
To those who have studied Brethren history, it is clear that the (mythical/unbiblical) pre-tribulation rapture (and hence the prophetical ramifications that flow from it) was the principal reason why the parties split. B.W.Newton and S.P.Tregelles taught, preached and wrote against the novel pre-trib/secret/any moment rapture because they knew and believed it was not taught in Scripture. Darby was a well travelled man, and it was because of this that his influence went far and wide, even to the USA influencing Cyrus Scofield to pen his "Reference Bible" which led the reader to believe (by his marginal notes) that the any moment and pre tribulation rapture was taught in God's written word. And we now behold the damage this work has done?
I would encourage any visitor to your blog page to look up Benjamin Wills Newton on Wikipedia-his works have been a great help to me! George Muller (whom practically no Christian so I believe would say a bad word, said of Newton; "I consider Mr Newton's writings to be most sound and scriptural. and my wife and I are in the habit of reading them, not only with the deepest interest, but great profit to our souls."
PWMI's Le Noury, knows very well, as indeed many do many of their cohorts that the Bible does NOT teach (there are no verses that teach it) a Second Coming before THE Second Coming, but they steadfastly continue to believe and teach Darby's doctrine.
God bless your efforts.

















Anonymous said...

Well stated. Thank you sister. Paul Wilkinson was full of rage. Not of the spirit of Christ whatsoever. And most certainly NOT a Berean!

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Anonymous. It is a very short history, but hopefully there is enough here to make readers think about it and do their own research.I do question why intelligent men like Wilkinson, McMahon, Le Noury etc. do teach and support the pre-tribulation deception. It is incomprehensible that they have now chosen to make it a divisive issue. Very troubling. God bless you.

Anonymous said...

Research! Is this not THE problem? I firmly believe many do not want to "do their own research". It could be that they may well find what they don't want to find? And yet does not the Lord say "The truth will set you free"?
My problem isn't so much with 'ordinary' believers if I may call them that (for I am only such) but those who have set themselves up as pastors and evangelists with teaching ministries. I don't doubt that many are the Lord's blood bought people who believe in salvation by His atoning blood..ALONE, yet have no great understanding of Bible prophecy and the timing of the rapture, such is His sovereign electing grace!
About 5 years ago I firmly believed in the pre-trib rapture theory, and I believed that any who taught against it were doing the devils work! After much study and prayer, the 'light bulb moment' happened, and I could clearly see that pre-trib is NOT taught in Scripture and that much other error comes with its doctrine.
It wasn't that I wanted to believe in one or the other but ONLY the truth! It seemed right to me that Jesus could come back at any time because, after all He is "King of kings, and Lord of lords"! But, the Bible doesn't teach that this will happen-events MUST come to pass first.
As you correctly say Wilkinson, McMahon, LeNoury et'al are "intelligent men"; it is almost disturbing that they can't see the truth as plainly taught in Scripture.
We have had some near 2000 years of an any moment rapture that hasn't yet happened, and the window is ever closing.
I looked on "Rapture Ready" earlier-the stuff on there, the mind boggles!
I wonder what your fellow blogger Mr Stephens (PWMI supporter) thinks of Wilkinson's behaviour?
God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Anonymous.
One error does lead to another as you say - Darby's dispensationalism is a dangerous teaching and has infiltrated the church - I just heard someone today teaching seven dispensations.
These pastors will have to answer to the Lord for "teaching as doctrine the commandments of men" (Matthew 15:9)
Joe Schimmel and Jacob Prasch are exceptional bible teachers who preach the uncompromising word of God. There will be opposition of course, and not always from places we expect.
The verse comes to mind:"Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?" (Galatians 4:16).
Wilkinson etc. are very wrong to turn this into a divisive issue. I am praying that they will repent.
God bless

Mr. Dave MacPherson said...

Dear Sister-in-Christ Treena: Some time ago my wife discovered your web presence and we are agreed that the Lord has chosen you for a monumental task at this moment in history. As an American journalist who has focused for decades on pretribulation rapture history, I endorse and enjoy your incredible academics as well as your activism! One highlight during our on-site research over there for my various books was the time the late eminent scholar F. F. Bruce invited us to have tea with him in his Univ. of Manchester office, at which time he said he had gone over one of my books to check on my accuracy and had found only one insignificant error (something like my listing "Vol. I" instead of "Vol. II" in a footnote) which of course made my day! Dr. Bruce was well aware that I had uncovered evidence that Irving and his followers had preceded even Darby on all crucial aspects of dispensationalism, and Bruce also knew it would take time to convince even my closest friends of this even though other scholars (Fuller, Bass, Gundry, Sandeen and also Rowdon of London Bible College) had noted the same long ignored facts about Irvingism. Treena, I noted the mentions of "dishonesty" in the above and invite others to peruse my web pieces including "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty," "Pretrib Hypocrisy," and "Famous Rapture Watchers." And I will shamelessly mention my well documented work "The Rapture Plot" (which has been raked over the coals so much by my critics that it's truly a hot book!) since all of my royalties have always gone to a nonprofit corporation and not to me. BTW, since I'm now 82 and unable to get back to Britain, let me mention that I know of an immensely intriguing shelf mark at the British Library having to do with a certain historical collection on dispensational beginnings that could be the basis for a shocking booklet if not a book that someone could produce! If I am allowed to add my email address, it is . I still do little else than eat, drink, and sleep pretrib rapture history - and was honored to be filmed and included in the new DVD "Left Behind or Led Astray?" and am disturbed that Wilkinson is so unreasonably enraged over it! Lord bless you.

Treena Gisborn said...

You do me very much honour Mr McPherson - much more than I deserve. I am simply one small person in this whole scenario and I am very much learning on my feet. I am so glad that you were able to participate in the DVD LBOLA. I have the consolation that it is all in the Lord's hands ultimately. God bless you for standing in the truth. xxx

Anonymous said...

Dave McPherson!?
The anti pre-trib big hitter!
Is this a wind up?
What a small world we now live in? Up here in a remote Scottish island, Treena somewhere in England, you in the US! Darby had to sail across the Atlantic Ocean to publish abroad his (false) doctrine!!! Nowadays, and a few clicks later and....

Your 'friends' at Rapture Ready, make much of your visit to Disneyland US (I think, from memory you were the first visitor there?) But all this aside, you have written much against the pre-trib error and it's origins in regards to Margaret McDonald (was that her name?). But the plain fact is, the pre-tribulation rapture is NOT taught anywhere in the Bible. If my memory serves me rightly, your father Norman taught against this error and has some of his work on Providence Baptist Ministries?
There seems to me to be much obfuscation (unnecessarily so) with regards to pre-trib origins as I would remind any visitor here-the Bible does NOT teach it! Also, to those who have studied Brethren history practically the whole world and his dog can see that something major happened when Darby came on the scene?
It is so good that you have visited this site, and that Treena has 'dug her heels' into this very important area of prophecy!
Truly F.F.Bruce was a great Bible scholar, Jacob Prasch speaks so very highly of him. And like you 'soundchristian'.com describe Prasch and you as bad apples! A good place to be, if you know what I mean?
God bless you.

Mr. Dave MacPherson said...

Greetings to you, Anonymous. Yes, the "Rapture Ready" site has long listed me as a "bad apple" and a "Pre-trib rapture basher," so I responded to RR's leader with a Google piece titled "Open Letter to Todd Strandberg" which he has never answered. Todd also said that my main claim to fame (noted by Wikipedia) is that as a college student I waited all night to be first in line to buy the first ticket sold at Disneyland on grand opening day (Mon., July 18, 1955), for which I received a lifetime pass good for myself and three others at all Disney parks worldwide - free admission, free attractions, big discount on all food etc. - which I still have.
Little did I realize then that someday as a historian I would be uncovering "Mickey Mouse" theology of the past and receiving many "Goofy" ripostes directed at my research!
Yes, Margaret Macdonald was the young "culprit" in Port Glasgow, Scotland in 1830 (Google "Margaret Macdonald's Rapture Chart" and "X-Raying Margaret") and she should have been one of the most famous females of all time!
And yes, my theologian father Norman is included on the Providence Baptist Ministries site with his excellent book "Triumph Through Tribulation" which was generously sliced, and diced, and belittled by such notables as Walvoord, Pentecost, Stanton, and others.
(While my father was Scottish, my mother traced her English ancestry back to William the Conqueror and thus to Charlemagne earlier - which was reason enough to visit William's chapel in the Tower when we found ourselves in London - but that's another story.)
While readers here may wonder who may have inspired Wilkinson's outrageous rage, my 300-page nonfiction book "The Rapture Plot" reveals the following on p. 176:
"Which brings me to John Darby, the master 'special effects' man, and his verbal abuse in an undated work located between works dated 1850 and 1865.
"Darby spoke of 'ignorance,' 'confusion,' and 'blindness' and said: 'How entirely this system destroys spirituality and divine intelligence!' His vocabulary added 'superficiality,' 'extreme levity,' and 'unmingled darkness.' But he was only getting warmed up. He then said 'unbelief and Satan,' 'absence of spiritual intelligence,' 'utter futility of its reasonings,' 'open blasphemy,' 'mass of unscriptural fancies and follies,' 'gross absurdities,' 'real blasphemies,' and 'blasphemies.'
"Was Darby applying these expressions to what he viewed as Irvingite aberrations? Or to persons openly hostile to God or the Bible? No. He was applying his phrases to a work defending the historic posttribulation rapture view!"
And here is the source for the above that I included: "J. N. Darby, 'The Coming of the Lord and the Translation of the Church' (1850-65), Prop. No. 4, pp. 177-92."
The Lord bless and reward you all. Please pray for my wife Wanda and myself as we continue, with the Lord's help, to research and share our findings. In Him, Dave MacPherson



Anonymous said...

Treena,
I am only half way through watching (for the first time) the Wilkinson video, I noted that he called the "Blessed hope" Titus 2.13 the rapture, and not Jesus Christ! (about 17 minutes into video). I hope to watch the rest later; all my previous comments were based on what I previously knew regards the false pre-trib rapture 'view' (as some call it-a deception is more appropriate).
Sadly there are so many, many Christians who are apathetic in the extreme regards the Second Advent (the pre-trib rapture to those who believe in it-for that is what it amounts to?) If only those who are deceived by its doctrine could see that it is nowhere taught in God's word? These folk have no idea how Dispensationalism has wreaked havoc and permeated (like a cancer) into the Christian Church of ALL denominations.
I don't know much about Wilkinson, apart from his affiliation with Truth 4 Youth (I can't see him sharing the platform there anymore with Jacob Prasch?)and PWMI. But he made mention that he was Pentecostal (which was birthed out of the Wesleyan holiness movement) which came into the world in 1907 in Azusa Street.
I believe the so-called modern day Pentecostal/Charismatic movement to be saturated in error. It's origins were NOT from the Protestant Reformation, which is why many of its luminaries are now Rome ward bound (ecumenism).
It is a great sin to speak lightly of the Reformation as so many do today.
God bless you.

It was so very interesting to have Dave MacPherson visit here! I always found that Disneyland episode to be highly amusing!
Have you ever read Corrie Ten Boom's letter on the rapture? A must read for those who may be confused about theology-search her name and rapture (to those that are interested).

Treena Gisborn said...

If you have not watched it all yet Anonymous, the worst is yet to come at question time towards the end! As you say Dave MacPherson's input was very interesting and unexpected! I have not read Corrie Ten Boom's letter on the rapture, I shall make that my next assignment. God bless you xxx

Anonymous said...

A few more thoughts on this pre-trib rapture topic. You have named this blog "WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS". If something isn't taught in Scripture, then it must be exposed for what it is-a lie? Now, almost too many write against the WOF/Charismatic movement, and what some may call the worst excesses of Pentecostalism, but I remember a Pentecostal pastor from Reading John Angliss saying that "people who are deceived by the likes of Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn and such" deserve to be deceived. What he is effectively saying, is that if you READ your Bible, you will not get taken in by them. These 'teachers' and 'prophets' are almost not wearing sheep's clothing!!!
So, could it not be true that the most dangerous false teachers today are those such as Wilkinson and co, as they have a great degree of orthodoxy. It seems that Wilkinson and his cohorts at PWMI have pushed the mythical pre-trib rapture to be the most important aspect of their entire ministry!
Is it a light thing to teach two Second Advents (for that is what it amounts to?).
It would do the pre-trib advocates to seriously take to heart the solemn warnings in Revelation 22.18-19. They have been warned loud and clear. How many are they leading astray by giving their people a false hope?
I did not enjoy watching and listening to Wilkinson.
God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you for your thoughts Anonymous. I too have been thinking a lot more about this. It seems to me that Wilkinson etc. have a vested interest in promoting the pre-trib delusion, and if that is the case, they are putting their own interests above that of the flock who they are charged to be shepherds (1 Peter 5:2). This is therefore extremely serious.

There is strong evidence that Darby was the either the plagiarist of Edward Irving, or that the two of them conspired for Darby to get the credit for pre-trib. Edward Irving was a heretic - he actually said that Christ inherited a sinful nature. This then is the foundation of the pre-tribulation rapture delusion - A PLAGIARIST AND A HERETIC (probably in collusion with one another)! It is unbelievable!

It will be interesting to read Paul Wilkinson's "rebuttal" to LBOLA.

Have you seen Jacob Prasch's response: "Questions For My Pre-Trib Brethren" https://vimeo.com/139809424 ?

The charge against pre-tribulation pastors is DERELICTION OF DUTY! Souls may actually be lost because pre-trib pastors have failed to prepare the body of Christ for persecution under the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation. To make matters worse, Wilkinson has made it a divisive issue, and he has attempted to call into the question the calling of God upon Joe Schimmel and Jacob Prasch as ministers. This is despicable!

Truth is the issue here.... Jesus Christ is the truth.

Anonymous said...

Treena,
Personally, I have NEVER, at any one time gone down the Irving, MacDonald, Ribera, Lacunza etc. route. I discovered from MY own personal Bible study (not wanting to be influenced by theology, rather-what does the Bible actually say???). Some may bother themselves too much in that route, you may know who the some are? However, that is not to say that Darby wasn't influenced by the Scottish lassie or Irving, only the Lord knows for sure?
I think the Irving/MacDonald/Darby episode is a very interesting one (a distraction, or 'side show' as some may say?), and certainly many do like a good "cloak and dagger" story? Dave MacPherson is 100% correct in his 'attack' on the pre-tribulation rapture theory, the Bible knows nothing of it!
However, I remember reading a sermon by Charles Spurgeon where he said that "beauty is proportion", and that when applied to theology we shouldn't lean too heavily in one area of it as so many do?
As you say Irving was a heretic; could anything else be said of one who said such as you quote?
Truly, a great many today, have no idea of the error of Dispensational theology, and how it has wreaked absolute havoc in the way we understand our Bibles, of which the pre-tribulation rapture is the 'masterpiece' or natural outworking of it's satanic origins? Hard words, I know, and, yes I am very well aware of the gravity of God's word in Matthew 12.36-37. I post anonymously, but God KNOWS who I am!??
As regards "FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS" I was thinking earlier-what exactly constitutes a false prophet? In other words, what does one have to do or be to qualify for such a status? Prophesy lies? Those who teach and preach pre-tribulationism, are they not doing just that? Do not these 'teachers' come under God's condemnation because they are teaching of an event that will NOT come to pass? Many (even in the pre-trib camp!) have ridiculed the likes of Harold Camping and co (rightly so) for naming dates etc. But how much different is the general tenor of false pre-tribulation doctrine in this regard? Are not ALL pre-trib teachers false prophets-prophesying and teaching what the Scripture says will not come to pass? I repeat this, because are not these serious questions, that deserve our attention?
Again, I must stress that it is the 'teachers' that will come under "the greater condemnation" not the laity-James 3.1?
May the Lord bless your blog site.

colin said...

I shall log on that Jacob Prasch link tomorrow!

Treena Gisborn said...

The test of scripture always takes pr-eminence (1 Thessalonians 5:1; 1 Corinthians 14:29) The pre trib deception definitely fails this test. The scriptures say that every matter must be established by two or three witnesses (2 Corinthians 13:1). There was witness after witness after witness against pre trib in the DVD LBOLA. The only witnesses in favour of pre-trib were totally unreliable. Colin Le Noury was clearly no match for Joe Schimmel. Le Noury was ignorant about pre-trib history and his responses were an embarrassment to the pre-trib cause, which I think partly explains Wilkinson's hostility. In stark contrast Jacob Prasch, Joel Richardson and Dave MacPherson were very articulate. I am grateful to Dave MacPherson for filling in the gaps in the Darby/Irving/MacDonald connections. I must say, I believed that Darby had invented pre-trib until I watched the DVD and did some further research myself. I think it is important to go into the history thoroughly, as Dave McPherson obviously has, in order to properly refute those who are spreading the pre-trib delusion. I do believe that the DVD was thoroughly researched and that it is accurate. God bless x

Anonymous said...

I asked Neville Stephens (A big PWMI supporter/organiser/blogger) if he would explain (in layman's language that is) the definition of a false prophet. I worded it so as he would assume that I had little or no knowledge of the pre-trib deception.
I said to him; I was told the description of a false prophet fits all those who TEACH a pre-tribulation rapture, this is because they are prophesying an event that the Bible doesn't teach.
After a little ramble this is his answer (24th Sept) under the heading "YET ANOTHER END TIMES FALSE PROPHET-THE DUPLICITOUS JEWISH RABBI JONATHAN CAHN!!!"

"And as for the PWMI...the jury is still out, for their pre-trib stance is yet to be proven as incorrect. Certainly there will be a RAPTURE, but it could be pre, mid, post or pan....we will have to wait to find out who is right!"

A quite shocking answer, I think you'll agree? When the antichrist is on the scene, it will be to late.

I gather someone by the name of Andy has been troubling him!

Treena Gisborn said...

The ignorance of David James, speaker at the Berean Call Conference - He is foolish enough to talk about the pre-wrath position without even understanding what it is!

http://www.alankurschner.com/2015/09/03/dave-james-at-the-recent-berean-call-conference-gives-a-tortured-definition-of-what-prewrath-teaches/

http://livestream.com/bereancallconference/discernment

Neville Stephens said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Treena Gisborn said...

What happened between us is a very distant memory now dear Nev, it is as if it never happened. I have nothing but good thoughts towards you and I pray that the Lord will bless you greatly. I did not realize that it was Ichabod.... may the Lord save us from his trouble-making. I have heard that others are now re-examining pre-trib and changing their position - I am glad that you are giving it some further thought as well. God bless you xxx

Anonymous said...

Neville, If you read my post above dated 23rd September, I only quoted what John Angliss said in regards to those being deceived by the likes of Todd Bentley and co! I have no idea whatsoever of Angiss's eschatology! I don't know what he believes or teaches in this regard!
I have only heard Angliss preach on two occasions, at a Pentecostal outfit I was fellowshipping in at the time (some 8 years ago or so). It was only when I discovered the Pentecostal error that I shown it a clean pair of heels! I wasn't even aware that Angliss had anything to do with PWMI until now! He may well be a "lovely man" (quite what that has to do with it, I don't know?).
Anyway, I live in the Outer Hebrides, and my name is NOT Andy! I have only posted TWICE on all your blogs, one to find Bob Mitchell's new site, and the last one when I enquired about your definition of a false prophet! Pre-trib teachers are prophesying of an event that clearly will not happen.
It is very good that you "USED to be pre-trib"! The Bible does NOT teach it. I only ASSUMED (rightly so?-I am not aware that you are de-bunking it?) that you were teaching pre-trib because of all your many links to pre-trib ministries and of course your involvement with PWMI.
If any are saved at all it will only be by God's sovereign electing grace.
May we all grow in grace and truth.

Neville Stephens said...
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Anonymous said...

I am so very, very glad that you two are "the best of buddies" again! Long may this continue!?
John Angliss is a very intelligent man, of that I have no doubt (as is Paul Wilkinson et'al). I applaud his home-schooling efforts, this had an input into my family. He is an excellent preacher and no doubt very sincere and "lovely". I speak only as I see and hear.
But if he teaches the any moment, pre-tribulation rapture with the great gusto you seem to suggest, then what does that make him? A true prophet/teacher?
I was initially offended at his words when he said that those who were "taken in by Todd Bentley deserve to be deceived" I thought this was hateful and uncalled for at the time. But after much Bible study, I would now say Amen to his words.

Considering the subject matter (that is the false pre-tribulation rapture theory), I was somewhat taken aback by Neville Stephens comment (which I believe must be true?). Because when I was attending the Pentecostal Church I was not aware that there was any rapture. After much Bible study I subsequently became aware of this momentous subject because I believed in the Lord Jesus as Saviour. The label I would put now put myself under would be Historic pre-millennial, Reformed/Calvinistic, POST TRIBULATIONAL and supra-lapsarian.
Believers want labels, so there you have it! A mouthful, I know, but I believe the Old Paths (those which blessed this once great nation) are the true paths. And is it not a GREAT sin to speak lightly of the Reformation as so MANY do today? Ecumenism is the fruit of this counter Reformation heritage, is it not?
I think it shameful that folk such as "Ichabod" and "Andy" cause much strife to you bloggers. Let us not forget the solemn exhortation in Hebrews 4.13? "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do." Hebrews 4.13. Now, what God fearing person would discount these solemn and sacred words? It matters not whether I post as anonymous, God knows who I am? I want no personal glory, I am but dust. The God of the Bible is a jealous God.
I would only re-iterate that it is a 'co-incidence' (God doesn't play dice) that I once happened to have sat under the teaching ministry of a big pre-trib teacher. I was ignorant then, but praise God I am not now.
Are we to "check to find out their eschatological position, for it can come to rebound on you?" (Neville Stephens) Nothing has rebounded on me! As I said I quoted Angliss faithfully and truthfully,; if in doubt e-mail or ring him up. I shall be around for a long time to come (God willing that is!)
May we all grow in grace and truth?

Anonymous said...

I found an interesting pdf document on-line under http://www.sorcf.co.uk/resource-docs/reflectionsonflorida.
Worth a read, there is much in it that I would agree with. Angliss does indeed say "they deserve to be deceived". Also (for your information Neville) I didn't realise that Angliss once sat on the board of Derek Prince Ministries-explains a lot!? But I shall not go down that route now-the Pentecostal outfit I was involved with were heavily soaked in Prince's teaching. How can anyone know everything what everyone believes? I am not omniscient! I see Angliss's links-all very pre-trib! Including Alan Franklin's site, maybe Neville may care to inform him of his new stance on pre-trib doctrine?
God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

Another speaker at the Berean Call conference, David James, blundered his way through the Book of Revelation:

http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/berean-call-conference-2015-david-james.html

Treena Gisborn said...

A Roundtable Discussion Answering Dr. Paul Wilkinson & The Berean Call
Joe Schimmel, Jacob Prasch and John Haller:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiNjDYsHfh4&feature=youtu.be

Anonymous said...

While this may be very late to comment, please note that in Sword & Trowel, it was Mr Grant who was relating what PBs/Darbyists were doing, not Spurgeon himself, but I assume to be in full agreement.