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Thursday, 10 September 2015

left behind or led astray: paul wilkinson's vitriolic outburst at the berean call conference 2015!!!

Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? (Job 38:2)

The recent vitriol Paul Wilkinson displayed at the Berean Call Conference against the film Left Behind or Led Astray by Good Fight Ministries is an appalling attempt to discredit three dear brothers in Christ who reject the pre-tribulation rapture theory and who variously hold to a post-tribulation or intra-seal (pre-wrath) position!
http://livestream.com/bereancallconference/israel2

The Berean Call Conference did not live up to its name - in reality they are anything but Bereans (Acts 17:11). Instead of providing us with a reasoned argument supported by the scriptures, Paul Wilkinson tore into Joe Schimmel, Jacob Prasch and Joel Richardson like a savage wolf. I have rarely witnessed such an arrogant and abusive outburst against respected Bible expositors, infinitely better qualified to minister to the body of Christ than himself, men who rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

Paul Wilkinson: "This DVD is damaging, it's destructive, it's dangerous, and it is thoroughly dishonest, and it is one of the most abominable Christian DVD's I have ever sat through. .....it is full of false accusations, unsubstantiated myths and lies."

Paul Wilkinson: "The origin of the  pre-tribulation rapture..... is found right here in the word of God" (waving his Bible in the air), though he did not care to specify where exactly!

The Bible teaches us to gently warn our opponents (assuming of course that we are right - 2 Timothy 2:25; see also 1 Timothy 5:1-2). It is a pity that Wilkinson could not extend the same grace that Joe Schimmel and Jacob Prasch extend to their brothers in Christ who hold a pre-tribulation rapture view. Certainly Jacob Prasch has always maintained that the timing of the rapture should not be a divisive issue. His previous respect towards, and friendship with those holding a pre-tribulation view, such as Dave Hunt, bears witness to this. Joel Richardson also came under fire from Wilkinson for daring to express his view without being "a pastor of the flock of Jesus Christ."  Wilkinson is outraged that Joel Richardson "would DARE........ to say that pastors are leading the flock astray." Joel Richardson is an expert on biblical prophecy, an evangelist and a respected author and speaker; just because he is not "a pastor" does not disqualify him from having a view on the matter as Wilkinson infers! Are we back in the Dark Ages? MY QUESTION: How DARE Wilkinson preclude ANYONE, let alone a man of Joel Richardson's calibre, from speaking out and expressing his/her concerns about this critical debate of our time? Wilkinson seems to put greater emphasis on the position of "pastor" (a superior being whom we should bow down and do blind obeisance to apparently) and worldly qualifications that glorify men more than the word of God (Galatians 6:3; 1 Peter 5:3). He has insidiously voiced his own toxic opinion on this matter thereby predisposing his hearers into accepting it without providing any evidence to support it from the scriptures. In the process he has maliciously attempted to harm the good reputation and character of godly men, global experts in their field, who are spiritually and academically head and shoulders above himself. Apparently Wilkinson's "thorough rebuttal" will follow - but this is not the right way of doing things! There is clearly something very wrong here.

Instead of referring to the scriptures, Wilkinson made much of the supposed misinformation put out by Joe Schimmel in this DVD. Wilkinson insisted that Benjamin Wills Newton was NOT present with John Nelson Darby at Margaret McDonald's so called "revelations" in Glasgow. For someone who constantly brags about his own integrity, Wilkinson has blatantly contradicted his own research, as demonstrated below!!!!

"John  Nelson Darby and Benjamin Wills Newton, whom the Brethren sent on their behalf to investigate, came to the conclusion that these displays were demonic."
Wilkinson, Paul Richard (2007). For Zion's Sake: Christian Zionism and the Role of John Nelson Darby. Paternoster. p. 192–93.  
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Macdonald_%28Prophecy%29

The connection that Joe Schimmel makes between Margaret McDonald and John Nelson Darby is that she uttered revelations about the rapture prior to the Second Coming, which apparently was a novel idea at that time. What Wilkinson fails to point out is that there are different editions of McDonald's utterance. Apparently the earlier version has at least nineteen instances where the account adds a significant amount of words not found in the more condensed later edition. The link below does in fact show that McDonald's utterance bears some relevance to the pre-tribulation theory, and in this sense she IS part of the history. If there were any doubts about Joe Schimmel's meaning, surely most self respecting Christians would have had the grace to ask him for clarification before accusing him of dishonesty and vilifying him publicly!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_MacDonald_%28visionary%29  

Joe Schimmel: "Darby spent several days listening to Margaret McDonald's prophetic utterances about a secret second coming of Christ, which he and Newton came to believe were demonic in origin. However not long afterwards, DARBY HIMSELF WOULD FORMULATE HIS OWN NOVEL VIEWS ABOUT A SECRET COMING OF CHRIST."  

It appears that Joe Schimmel IS correct in saying that Edward Irving got the idea of a secret rapture from a Jesuit, and that Irving DID have occult connections.
http://thedayaftertomorrow.net/gnk/The-Kabbalah-Unveiled.pdf
 
"For years the subject of prophecy had occupied much of his (Edward Irving's) thoughts, and his belief in the near approach of the second advent had received such wonderful corroboration by the perusal of the work of a Jesuit priest, Manuel Lacunza, writing under the assumed Jewish name of Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra, that in 1827 he published a translation of it....."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Irving

We should be very careful about calling anyone "A LIAR" (James 4:11). There are some very serious anomalies associated with Wilkinson's attack against Joe Schimmel, and I think we should question the motivation behind his vicious outburst!!! 

"Paul Wilkinson is the Associate Minister at Hazel Grove Full Gospel Church in Stockport, England. He was converted to Christ in February 1990 whilst studying Mathematics and Statistics at the University of York. He has a BSc in Mathematics and Statistics, a BA and MA in Theology, and a PhD in Religions and Theology. He has also studied at the International School of Holocaust Studies at Yad Vashem in Jerusalem. In 2007 his PhD thesis was published by Paternoster Press entitled, For Zion’s Sake: Christian Zionism and the Role of John Nelson Darby.
Paul Wilkinson is a member of the Council of Prophetic Witness Movement International in the UK, and a member of the Pre-Trib Research Center in Lynchburg, Virginia."
http://www.bereanwatchmen.com/index.php/guest-articles/paul-wilkinson

Now that we have got that out of the way and are suitably impressed, let us get on to the subject in hand i.e. the pre-tribulation rapture theory which does not have one shred of evidence in the scriptures! Inconceivably, Wilkinson credits Darby with "restoring this precious truth"  .....where did Darby restore it from exactly? Wilkinson cannot argue against the fact that the pre-tribulation rapture was unheard of prior to 1830. To insist upon a theory that no-one in the Christian world recognized until it was invented by Darby?* in the 1830's is to compromise ones spiritual and academic integrity. Wilkinson accuses Joe Schimmel and his guests of propagating "myths", yet ironically there is no greater myth than the secret rapture theory!

Wilkinson must be completely delusional if he really thinks that he can refute the following statements JUST BECAUSE HE SAYS SO, WITHOUT ONCE REFERRING TO THE SCRIPTURES! His behavior is just like that of his despotic hero John Nelson Darby!

  • A pre-trib rapture cannot be proven from the Bible. Wilkinson: "YES IT CAN!."
  • Pre-trib pastors are failing in their role as pastors. Wilkinson: "NO THEY ARE NOT!"
  •  It's history is sordid and scandalous. Wilkinson: "NO IT IS NOT!"
  • Its origins are occultic and demonic. Wilkinson: "NO THEY ARE NOT!"
  • The "theory" can be traced in some form to the Jesuits. Wilkinson: "NO IT CANNOT!"
If we consider that the pre-tribulation theory puts Christians in danger of falling away and losing their salvation, then the statement: "Pre-tribulation pastors are failing in their role as pastors" is perfectly reasonable. Those leaders promoting this theory should be warned about teaching as doctrines the precepts of men, a practice which Jesus Christ condemned (Matthew 15:9).

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book....." (Revelation 22:18 see also Deuteronomy 4:2).

Error breeds error, and of course the pre-tribulation theory stands in tandem with the error of imminency which is another derived doctrine not explicitly stated in the scriptures (2 Timothy 2:15; Galatians 5:9).

The main verses that support a post tribulation/pre-wrath rapture are:

Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The Lesson of the Fig Tree “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. (Matthew 24:29-33, 36, emphasis added).

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) 

The dead in Christ rise FIRST on the LAST DAY preceding the rapture:

"This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at THE LAST DAY." (John 6:39, emphasis added)

"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at THE LAST DAY."
(John 6:40)

  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at THE LAST DAY."
(John 6:44)

  "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at THE LAST DAY"
(John 6:54)
 
1 Thessalonians 4 is similar to what Paul says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21. At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless.

Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. (Revelation 3:10) 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGi9PBUJwAg

There are numerous proof texts and passages that support a post tribulation/pre-wrath rapture.

The awful accusations Wilkinson levels at Joe Schimmel and Jacob Prasch are unsubstantiated, they are scripturally deficient, academically devoid of integrity and spiritually toxic. He is embarrassingly guilty of the very accusations he levels at them i.e. dishonesty, false accusations, unsubstantiated myths and lies. We should not be surprised when Wilkinson's false words come back to bite him (Galatians 6:7).

If Paul Wilkinson is so very confident about the pre-tribulation theory, then he should claim the $10,000 offered by Joe Schimmel to anyone who can show him ONE CLEAR VERSE in the Bible that teaches a pre-tribulation rapture!

For they sow the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind. The standing grain has no heads; it shall yield no flour; if it were to yield, strangers would devour it. (Hosea 8:7)




* Edward Irving published pre-tribulation teachings prior to Darby in his journal "The Morning Watch" (1830). It therefore appears that Darby was a plagiarist, and not the originator of the pre-tribulation theory.
http://www.seeking4truth.com/john_darby.htm 

A Roundtable Discussion Answering Dr. Paul Wilkinson & The Berean Call 
Joe Schimmel, Jacob Prasch and John Haller:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiNjDYsHfh4&feature=youtu.be

The Sordid History of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Deception:
http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/thomas-ice-and-paul-wilkinson-sordid.html

Recommended Links:
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/
http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0006.html
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/an-open-letter-to-t-a-mcmahon-of-the-berean-call/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CGBKP1QKBM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyV1jGL_-WY
http://freestockphotos.com/COMING1/DarbysInvention.htm
http://www.spurgeon.org/s_and_t/dbreth.htm
https://vimeo.com/139809424 

24 comments:

Anonymous said...

Jacob Prasch has always held out an olive branch to those who teach and preach the errant 'any moment' pre-tribulation rapture. This is because the theology they hold to (Dispensationalism) teaches a literal 1000 year millennial reign of Christ. Having said this, in his book "Shadows of the Beast" Prasch (from memory) stated in this work that the pre-trib rapture was a deception. So in effect true fellowship with those who hold to pre-trib was always going to be strained?
Dispensationalism is satanic theology, it divides law from grace, teaches that Israel and the Church have two separate destinies (one an earthly people, the other heavenly). Many forget that there are those who hold to reformed theology (myself included) that are pre-millennial who hold that the rapture and the Second Advent are one and the same event.
These divisions will become greater, I believe in these latter days. I have never read any of Wilkinson's works (I wouldn't read anything authored by a member of a 'full gospel' church!), but if he has books in print which teach this deception, it cannot be easy for him and his ilk to recant, (pride) can it? So the only course of action will be a "vitriolic outburst".
I often wonder how many pre-trib theologians there are, who once being convicted that their writings/teachings are false, will not say so publicly? I did talk to one at a Truth for Youth conference once, and he became very uncomfortable when I asked him certain questions...
God bless.

Anonymous said...

Treena,
An interesting article.
When you say "a man of Joel Richardson's calibre" what exactly do you mean? He is (whoever he is-I haven't heard of him) only a man. I believe the Bible teaches that there is no partiality with God?

Treena Gisborn said...

You are quite right anon - there is no partiality with God. I simply meant that Joel Richardson is a gifted prophecy teacher with a wealth of biblical knowledge. He is a mere mortal and fallible like the rest of us of course. FYI http://www.joelstrumpet.com/
God bless x

Anonymous said...

It is hard for me to get out to Church and fellowship, and I was so looking forward to the conference at Berean Call that weekend. The conference turned out to be such a focus on the DVD "Left Behind or Led Astray", and how they felt about it. They were for sure trying to sway others to their side of the issue. I found their attitudes to quick "cocky" (can I say that?) T. A. McMahon was very arrogant and just his mannerisms were quite smart-aleck and their laughing at anyone who would believe anything other than Pre-trib. I unsubscribed them; not to show them! but I honestly do not want to hear their arrogant attitudes ever again. It was such a deflation by Sunday, that I truly felt I waisted my time listening at all.
I talked to John Haller, and I agree with him; Jacob, Joe, and Joel deserve an apology and in my opinion, a public apology.
Good Fight Ministries has done their research, and I pre-ordered a copy of the DVD and got it right away when they were done, and was so glad to listen. They also sent a free DVD because it was late getting produced. Paul Wilkenson and T. A. made a big deal of that too. Anything to cut Good Fight down. Whatever... The free DVD I was given so generously by them was, " They Sold Their Souls For Rock-N-Roll". Perfect timing, as my son is going to a Ozzy Osborne concert in October. I gave him the DVD and he is watching it. I pray he changes his mind. - Rita

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Rita. It is good to hear first hand from someone who was actually present at this conference. I too have had nothing but a positive experience with Good Fight Ministries. Joe Schimmel and Jacob Prasch are excellent Bible teachers - they are a great blessing to the body of Christ. This vicious attack upon them is a grievous sin and an offense to the Lord. As you say, Wilkinson and McMahon should publicly apologise.

I am confident that the Lord will bless these dear brothers and that He will work all things for good (Romans 8:28).

"When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom." Proverbs 11:2

God bless you x

Anonymous said...

Reading your article again, I would assume you mean IMMINENCY not immanency?
I don't think it necessarily wrong to talk and believe in the imminent return of Christ per se. especially in the light of 2 Peter 3.8-10? This is an entirely different matter to the any moment return of the Saviour? There are certain events that must come to pass (as I believe the Bible to teach) before the Lord's Second Advent-the rebuilding of Babylon, the temple in Jerusalem, and then the antichrist himself, among other things including THE apostasy and the one world financial system.
As said earlier, I have attended these sort of conferences before, and normally there would be many children/young adults (esp Truth 4 Youth) in attendance listening to the likes of McMahon, Wilkinson, etc. and their talks would ALWAYS be frequently interlaced with statements such as "The Lord could come back before tea time!" This mode of thought is deeply ingrained into their psyche, and no matter what you say to them about the fact that there is not one scripture to support the pre-trib rapture, they will not listen! But, as I have said they are teaching these youngsters error, and you are so right when you say "error breeds error". You also say "pre-trib pastors are failing in their role as pastors", how very true! They are teaching that the rapture is the "Blessed hope" not the Lord's Second Coming. These people are teaching an event that has zero biblical foundation.
As most of these conferences seem to be heavily biased toward pre-trib, I believe Mr Prasch may find it hard to get an invite soon! (Which would be a great shame).
BTW, I prefer Moriels old website!
God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Anonymous. I have corrected the error. My spellchecker picked up imminency as incorrect, so I altered it to immanency... but imminency turns out to be right after all. Well done you for picking it up.
As you say, the pre-trib rapture and imminency are deeply ingrained into the psyche of Wilkinson, McMahon et al. They don't apply the same biblical test to these theories as they would other theories. I find this incomprehensible.
Towards the end of the Livestream, Wilkinson said: "These men are not called to be pastors." Jacob Prasch has never claimed to be a pastor by the way, rather he is a teacher and an evangelist. Nevertheless, to put such a slur on these men's ministries is unspeakable. This is a body blow for the true church - I am still having difficulty getting over it.

Anonymous said...

Certainly; I can well understand the feelings you express in your last sentence; in regards to our "common salvation" we are to "earnestly contend for the faith" Jude 3-4. Jude goes on to say that "certain men crept in unawares who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men..." Paul speaks of a "form of ungodliness, but denying the power thereof; from such turn away" 2 Tim 3.5.
Now,I would NEVER say that to have a perfect knowledge of prophecy/Scripture is a pre-requisite to one's salvation (perish the most damnable thought-thief on the cross?) In part, this is why I believe in predestination/election-the Sovereignty of God.
But these men we are talking about purport themselves to be Bible teachers/scholars/pastors/experts, do they not? They ought to read James 3.1? It is interesting that Wilkinson makes much of being a pastor, yet does he not know that there is such a thing as FALSE pastors? The Bible teaches this most unequivocally-Zechariah 11.16-17 & Jeremiah 23.1. A pastor is but a shepherd! I like the way you say we are "suitably impressed" (a little sarcasm?!) with Wilkinson's roll call of honours showered upon him! As for me, I have 3 O Levels, the highest grade being a C.
This is all an aside, "If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" Isaiah 8.20.
God bless you.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you anonymous. What I have noticed with Wilkinson is that he does seem to put pastors onto a pedestal. I think is very dangerous. We should always test everything biblically and be like the Bereans Acts 17/11. How many cult leaders and false pastors do we have to suffer before we learn this lesson?
I had to edit this article dramatically before I posted it - most of the sarcasm is cut I can assure you. God bless x

Jenny Melendez said...

Joe Schimmel is an awesome pastor. He has a real love and passion for Jesus and it is contagious. I am so thankful for his proper exegesis of passages and thorough in depth studies. He always has us test what he says and what anyone says.
Just thought I would share that.
Blessings!

Treena Gisborn said...

I absolutely agree Jenny. Anyone who has heard Joe Schimmel will know that he has a great love for the Lord Jesus and that he has been called as a pastor. Wilkinson's attack is from the enemy, it is despicable. God bless you xxx

Anonymous said...

I'm grieved over this attitude of accusation and unkind words. Do any of you personally know Paul Wilkinson?

What would Jesus do? I don't care what you think Paul said was wrong, I'm asking you how Jesus would respond? Take the beam out of your own eye first. Your words are not humble, nor the peaceable wisdom from above. There is nothing of the reconciling heart of God in them.

Paul is praying for Jacob's health, and, despite strong words and opposing opinions, he would give his life for brother Jacob, if called upon to do so. I know that Jacob Prasch would do the same for Paul.

Your words and attitude do NOT reflect Jesus, the Friend of sinners.

We are called to a higher calling than this.

We are sisters in Christ, and His heart is that we seek peace and pursue it. He calls us to radical forgiveness and love.

Please consider Proverbs 31 and let the law of kindness be under our tongues, ladies.

Treena Gisborn said...

I do not know Paul Wilkinson anonymous - he is not someone I would care to know actually. How did Jesus respond to those who twisted the scriptures to suit their own agendas? I think he would be saying take the plank out of your own eye to Wilkinson and not to those who would stand in the truth. The pre-trib deception is a lie, it is a concocted doctrine with no scriptural basis. Wilkinson et al have deliberately chosen to make this a divisive issue and in the process Wilkinson has viciously slandered true men of God. This is extremely serious. Though I have forgiven him, Wilkinson is not someone I would ever trust as far as spiritual things are concerned. A tree is known by its fruit (Matthew 12:33-37). God bless you.

Anonymous said...

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Romans 16 17-18

Irv said...

[Treena, here's a portion of a recent web piece that demonstrates the deceitful and dishonest way pretrib leaders have analyzed Margaret Macdonald - all of which is totally shocking!]

MARGARET MACDONALD'S MAIN POINT

By Dave MacPherson

John Darby, Paul Wilkinson, and Thomas Ice are among those who have flunked the Margaret Macdonald test by covering up and misinterpreting what she (as the pretrib rapture originator) actually stated in 1830!

My book "The Rapture Plot" discusses Margaret's two-part main point (lines 58-63 in her 117-line account): seeing "one taken and the other left" before "THE WICKED" (Antichrist) is "revealed."

Hal Lindsey's "The Rapture" correctly says she taught "a partial Rapture" - that only PART of the church will be pretribbed up.

Walvoord's "The Rapture Question" also describes partial rapturists as "pretribulationists," and their charts show the "church" BEFORE AND AFTER their rapture in the same way Margaret was a "church splitter." (Google "X-Raying Margaret," "Margaret Macdonald's Rapture Chart," and "Pretrib Rapture's Missing Lines.")

Both John Cardale (in Edward Irving's journal in Dec. 1830) and John Darby (in his 1853 book) described their visits to mid-1830 meetings Margaret conducted in her home. Darby's "recollection" was such a mirror of the many details in Cardale's published account 23 years earlier that I'm convinced that Darby was merely copying Cardale's details, and Darby listed all of the details except one!

Although Darby mentioned Margaret's "texts on overcoming" (the "tribulation" or second half of her main point), he deliberately omitted her emphasis on "the coming of the Lord" (rapture) as the church's "deliverance" before the "judgments coming on the earth" which all visitors, except Darby, admitted was a pretrib event (the "rapture" or first half of her main point)!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

After Joe Schimmel's Good Fight Ministries produced the "Left Behind or Led Astray?" video (the greatest video exposure ever of pretribism's dishonesty-riddled history!), Britisher Paul Wilkinson savagely attacked it in an uber-unscholarly way in a video produced by the Berean Call Ministry titled "Left Behind or Led Astray? - Exposed."

In order to please his think-alike idol, John Darby, Wilkinson deliberately stopped his quotation of Margaret at line 45 so that he could omit the first (pretrib) part of her main point in order to be able to falsely declare that she advocated "a post-tribulation Rapture"!

Thomas Ice has been even more nervy than Wilkinson, his British "twin." When Ice quoted Margaret's 117-line account in the Dallas Seminary journal he omitted ALL OF HER MAIN POINT but made up for it by quoting just BEFORE and AFTER it!

Treena Gisborn said...

Their deception really is unbelievable Irv. Many unbelievers would not act in such a deceptive way, but we are talking about the "so-called" church! They throw truth to the ground (Daniel 8:12) God bless tx

Irv said...

[Treena, here's a key portion of another MacPherson item on Google titled "The Real Manuel Lacunza" which may clear up some things that weren't brought out in "Margaret MacDonald (visionary)" etc. on Wikipedia. "John Bray a PINO?" on Google is also related.]

Lacunza speculates (Vol. II, p. 250) that the "wrath" and "commotion" of the "day of the Lord's coming" (that is, the second advent) will last at least "forty-five natural days." Bray somehow sees these days as part of "the tribulation period" and claims that in Lacunza's view the raptured saints are up in the air with Christ throughout the same 45-day period.

Even though Lacunza places a rapture before this period, he repeatedly notes that this period is "after the entire ruin of Antichrist," "after the coming of Christ in glory and majesty," "in the age to come," etc.!

After the meeting in the air, Lacunza even has the raptured saints back on earth during the 45 days! In Vol. II (pp. 262-3) he declares that they will immediately become Christ's messengers; he quotes Isa. 18:2: "Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled"----in other words, to "the relics of all nations which shall survive" Antichrist's reign.

Does Lacunza teach a rapture occurring 45 days before the coming to earth, as Bray claims? Let's look at Vol. I.

On p. 83 Lacunza refers to the book of Revelation and writes that "the nineteenth chapter speaks of the coming of the Lord in glory and majesty, which Christians with one consent do wait for." Pages 99-100: after quoting I Thess. 4:13-18 Lacunza quotes Matt. 24:30 and then comments: "If you compare this text with that of St. Paul, you shall find no other difference than this, that those who are to arise on the coming of the Lord, the apostle nameth those who are dead in Christ, who sleep in Jesus; and the Lord nameth them his elect."

Lacunza (p. 113) again quotes I Thess. 4 and Matt. 24 in this manner:

"...He shall descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we who are alive, &c. and it appears to me, that you will find St. Paul and the Gospel speaking one and the same thing: He shall send his angels and they shall gather his elect from the four winds; who can be no other than those very ones who are in Christ, who sleep in Jesus."

For years I sent Lacunza quotes like the ones above to Bray and urged him to abandon that Catholic priest. Finally, in a letter dated Oct. 17, 1990 (still in my files), Bray wrote: "I don't even know what all Lacunza was talking about."

Treena Gisborn said...

Bray wrote: "I don't even know what all Lacunza was talking about."
That about sums it up Irv!

Irv said...

Treena, those who still see a connection between a pretrib rapture and some aspect of Catholicism may like to Google "Catholics Did NOT Invent the Rapture." I really appreciate all the great and God-honoring information you give to your many readers worldwide and I view you as a bright and much needed lighthouse on your island of Britain!

Treena Gisborn said...

http://son-of-encouragement.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/catholics-did-not-invent-rapture-to.html
The above is an interesting link Irv.
The island of Britain does not agree with you by and large, they would sooner go with pre-trib and have their ears tickled (2 Timothy 4:3-4). God bless x

Unknown said...

Hi I just wanted to know your view on Matthew 24 I have listened to Jacob prasch teach on the olivet discourse and he says that verse 31 is the rapture but if you read the chapter in its context isn't Jesus talking about Israel and the Jews I would like to know your opinion on this God bless

Jimmy Smith said...

I would like to know what's the purpose of the church being in the tribulation the 70 weeks prophecy given to Daniel is for Israel and the Jews not the church

Treena Gisborn said...

v29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. v30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. v31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. verses 29-31
Jesus talks on a worldwide scale...v30 "all the tribes of the earth".
It is after the tribulation and the cosmic phenomena, and it talks about gathering together episunagó. "from one end of the sky to the other" (Mark 13:27: "from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven." I would say that it is the rapture. God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

Daniel 9 fits in with Matthew 24 Jimmy. It clearly goes beyond the Jews to the actions of the Antichrist and his 7 year covenant with "many". The "purpose" as I see it, is that believers will be tested - Revelation 2/10. Those Jews who will repent will flee to Petra(?) and escape the tribulation.. 2/3 of Israel will be destroyed under the Antichrist. God bless.