It is obvious that David James has no knowledge whatsoever about the seven seals of Revelation, the pre-wrath view of the rapture, or much else for that matter. Incidentally, his advice for "discernment" is to "trust your instincts". (Jeremiah 17:5-9)!
Really Mr James, you would do better to stay at home and pray for discernment yourself! Matthew 7:5 seems appropriate.
The Lost Art of Biblical Discernment
http://livestream.com/bereancallconference/discernment
Towards the end of the above inappropriately named Livestream broadcast at approximately 01:30, David James is asked a question: "Can you briefly explain what pre-wrath is.....?"
David James response was nothing short of staggering:
David James: "The pre-wrath view is a modified mid-tribulational rapture view......prior to (I think it's the sixth seal or in connection with the sixth seal), at any rate, prior to the Great Tribulation, Jacob's Trouble, the church will be raptured and that the church will go through the first seal judgements including the first four horsemen judgements, and what they say is that these are the wrath of man and the wrath of Satan and we are only said to be preserved from the wrath of God which doesn't start until the mid point or prior to the wrath, which could be after the revelation of the Antichrist. It is kind of a post/mid rapture view..... One problem with that is throughout history God has used human agency, even angelic agency, to accomplish his purposes, but it is still no less the wrath of God, no matter if he uses human agency, and in connection with that, we see that the judgements begin when WHO breaks the seal? Jesus breaks the seal, that means it is the wrath of God no matter whether he uses human agency or not. Of course his means are nature later, early on they are the Antichrist and the armies of the world.
When does David James think that the sixth seal is opened?
Does David James imagine that the cataclysmic events described in Revelation 6:12-17 occur prior to the Great Tribulation?
THE PRE-WRATH VIEW IS NOT A MODIFIED MID-TRIBULATIONAL VIEW!
The pre-wrath view does not maintain that the rapture occurs prior to the Great Tribulation.
The difference between the mid and pre-wrath views:
- The mid-tribulation view puts the rapture at the mid point of Daniel's 70th week, prior to the Great Tribulation, approximately 3.5 years into the 70th week.
- The pre-wrath view puts the rapture after the sixth seal, not before, towards the latter half of Daniel’s 70th week, prior to the Day of the Lord (Revelation 6:12-17; Joel 2:28-32). Isaiah indicates this "day" is a literal year (Isaiah 34:8, 61:2, 63:4).
WRATH OR TRIBULATION?
The Book of Revelation describes the Day of the Lord as the apocalyptic time of God's wrath which comes upon the wicked, it is even referred to as "the day of their great wrath" (Revelation 6:17; Zephaniah 1:14-18; Isaiah 13:6-13; Joel 2:30-31; Acts 2:20). Following the opening of the sixth seal, the scriptures plainly state that the wrath of God has come (Revelation 6:12-17). If the wrath has only just arrived, it cannot have been there previously, you have to directly contradict the scriptures to come to another conclusion! The arrival of the wrath at the sixth seal is an imminent future event; the wrath is poured out during the seventh seal i.e. the trumpet and the bowl judgements. Matthew 24:29 puts the cosmic disturbances described in Revelation 6:12-14 immediately after the tribulation of those days. In other words, the events preceding the sixth seal are not the wrath of God, they are the tribulation. As is their usual practice, the pre-tribulationists have to resort to eisegesis; they read into the scriptures things which suit their own presuppositions and agendas (Revelation 22:18-19).
The Day of the Lord is indisputably linked with the rapture i.e. those "caught up" together with Jesus in the clouds.(1 Thessalonians 1:10; 5:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2).
DERELICTION OF DUTY
It seems to me that McMahon,Wilkinson et al have a vested interest in promoting the pre-tribulation delusion. If this is correct, they do so at the expense of the flock. It is a hireling, not a shepherd, who puts his own interests above that of the flock 1 Peter 5:2; John 10:13).
Paul Wilkinson labels as "heretics" those who reject the pre-tribulation rapture delusion. He has not acted in a gentlemanly way, but has hurled all sorts of false accusations and abuse against Joe Schimmel, Jacob Prasch and Joel Richardson. Blame shifting seems to be another problem for Wilkinson, who lays the blame for Colin Le Noury's incompetence entirely at Joe Schimmel's door - apparently because he "tricked and deceived" Le Noury (General Director PWMI) into admitting that "there is not one verse to support a pre-tribulation rapture". I wonder who Wilkinson will blame for the blunders of David James? May the Lord save his bride from dishonourable men such as these (James 3:1).
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction..... (2 Thessalonians 2:3)
A Roundtable Discussion Answering Dr. Paul Wilkinson & The Berean Call
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiNjDYsHfh4&feature=youtu.be
The Sordid Pre-Tribulation Rapture Deception!
http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/thomas-ice-and-paul-wilkinson-sordid.html
Further Links:
http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/c/a/3/ca3d37e7b859f2c1/Rapture_Debate_between_Alan_Kurschner_Prewrath_and_Thomas_Ice_Pretrib_9.25.15.mp3?c_id=9911990&expiration=1443439121&hwt=c17397d6d73b6843c2d460280a08985f
http://www.amatteroftruth.com/the-wrath-of-gos-verses-the-great-tribulation
http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/berean-call-conference-2015-paul.html
http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/left-behind-or-led-astray-paul.html#comments
http://livestream.com/bereancallconference/israel2
https://vimeo.com/139809424
Treena,
ReplyDeleteIs there in fact any distinction between the pre-trib and mid-trib positions? They both errantly teach that there will be a rapture before the 3 1/2 year great tribulation! The difference between the two positions is that the pre-trib teachers tell us that they will be raptured before Daniel's 70th week. Not understanding their eschatology aright mid-tribbers adopt this belief as a compromise, but as you can see they are both the same!
When I was pre-trib, I really racked my brain apart trying to figure out the scriptural gymnastics required to understand the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine, I nearly had brain seizure!!! And these pre-trib teachers would have us believe that you need to be an academic to understand their satanic theology (for that is what it is?) It is a form of popery, as under that wicked system, the Bible was with held from the laity, because it was too hard for them to understand!
I don't know who this David James is, but like the rest of them, they do not "hold fast the form of sound words"? Like Wilkinson they just splutter out any garbage.
I was at one of these conferences a couple of years ago trying to explain to a fellow believer that the Bible doesn't teach a pre-trib rapture, but he didn't want to listen to me as I hadn't been to Bible college!
Our beef should always be with the teachers of this false theology.
God bless.
Anonymous
ReplyDeleteThere is a distinction in the timing between the pre-trib and mid-trib position. However, as you say, they put the rapture before the 3.5 year great tribulation.
The pre-trib position is that believers will be raptured before what they mistakenly call the seven year tribulation i.e. the 70th week of Daniel, and prior to the Antichrist's seven year treaty (Daniel 9:27).
The mid-trib position still holds seven year tribulation error and cuts it in half, so in their view the rapture happens half way through the seven years.
Certainly from what I saw of Wilkinson, he is very authoritarian and hostile towards anyone who rejects pre-trib, even calling them "heretics". He seems to think that "pastors" (only certain pastors that he approves of mind you)are in some way to be put onto a pedestal - I really don't like it at all. These days anyone can do their research thank God; we are not reliant on so called "experts" to dictate what to believe. We are not in the Dark Ages now thank God, though I think Wilkinson would have it so!
God bless you x
Treena,
ReplyDeleteThat is what I asserted!
As we KNOW-the Bible says nothing of a seven year tribulation, only a seven year, "seventieth week" of Daniel! Pre & mid tribbers both believe in a seven year tribulation, but the net result is the same! Just because they call it a tribulation period does not make it so! The Antichrist will not show his true colours in the first half of the seventieth week!
Going back to Wilkinson-yes I agree with you. Remember, he is a Pentecostal pastor, you write much about them. The one we were under was an absolute control freak, the insults he hurled at my wife and I when we left that outfit, I shall not repeat here!
But YOU can well see how Wilkinson would treat his flock?! Just imagine if one of his people questioned him on his pre-tribulation teaching???
Woe betide!
You are so right when you say "We are not now in the Dark Ages now thank God" the Reformation WAS a mighty work of God. Spurgeon called Darby a "thorough pope" maybe Wilkinson is trying to emulate him?
God bless.
Darby is his hero Anonymous
ReplyDeleteThank you for your input. I am so sorry you have been hurt by the Pentecostals, join the club xxx
I am not sure if you are aware of the similarity of Dispensationalism and Marcionism?
ReplyDeleteThey both carve up the Scriptures and would teach us that certain portions do NOT apply to New Testament Christians! Dispensationalism at it's very core teaches ALL the warnings that God in Christ gave in Matthew 24 for one example do NOT apply to NT Christians. As if unbelieving Jews would believe any warning in the NT!
Marcion was rightly denounced as a heretic. I take no pleasure in calling any heretics, but Mr Wilkinson and his like should be very careful about what they say?
Since becoming convinced of the heresy of Dispensationalism, I have written umpteen pages on it, many Christians have absolutely no idea of how it's tentacles have spread like a cancer into every area of God's word. As John Angliss (a Pentecostal pre-trib big hitter) so rightly said of those who were taken in by Todd Bentley and his like, "they deserve to be deceived". Yet he is deceived-I have said before on your blog, we shouldn't be too concerned about the Bentley's and Hinn's et'al, but those who are truly "wolves in sheep's clothing." Those who would appear to display a great degree of orthodoxy? THESE are those who would "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Or as the Revised version says "lead astray, if possible the very elect."
I have been aware and read much of our friend Neville Stephens promotion of PWMI and it's core belief-the pre-trib rapture, so I do "take my hat off" to him, it cannot be easy for such to disown what he so previously cherished?
God bless.
I agree Anonymous, they do both butcher the scriptures - in a way they have two Gods. It is all down to a faulty view of God and being unable to reconcile law and grace I think. Only the Holy Spirit can give us that discernment, we cannot work it out in the flesh. I guess the Todd Bentley's are very obvious, and as you say, the respectable teachers with a "good reputation" are a greater danger in many ways. I do admire Nev for re-thinking the pre-trib position. It takes humility to publicly say you are having second thoughts when you have been a staunch advocate. The Lord is looking for those who are humble and flexible enough to admit they may have got it wrong. God bless Nev for that. x
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your input Nev. It is such a shame that Wilkinson has turned this into a divisive issue, and with such venom against an Joe Schimmel who is a highly respected pastor and long established. Prior to this I think everyone was able to disagree about the timing of the rapture without a major problem. I personally think that Wilkinson's vicious attack shows that he is totally unfit for the ministry. Academia is one thing, but the right heart is quite another (Proverbs 21:2).
ReplyDeleteThank you Neville for the short history lesson! Yes, we ALL "make many mistakes along the journey", how could it ever be otherwise? It is interesting that Wilkinson is only 40, I didn't come to faith in Christ until I was 42, (I had no understanding of Scripture until about 39)and a few short years after that I became aware of unfulfilled prophecy, and purchased and read every book on the subject I could lay my hands on. Now, it is very interesting that you talk about being "heavy shepherded", I believe Derek Prince was behind this wicked abominable practice? Although he subsequently 'repented' of it, nevertheless his wicked unbiblical teaching has left its marks throughout Pentecostal Christendom to this day?
ReplyDeleteIt is good you could see that Prasch, Mitchell and others, though strongly against pre-tribulationism, had much to offer in Christian doctrine, and were invited to your meetings. In fact when I was living near the Severn Bridge, I was very nearly compelled to go to one! (I spent most of my life there.)
When you say PWMI "seem to be the only organization around in the UK warning people about the End Times, and the importance of the Second Coming of Jesus", have you never heard of SGAT? The Sovereign Grace Advent Testimony? This Testimony has at its foundation the teaching of Benjamin Wills Newton, who OPPOSED Darby's new doctrine. SGAT are Reformed, Protestant, Puritan, Prophetical, Expository and Doctrinal. They have monthly meetings that can be viewed on-line, and personal attendance is very welcomed!) The speakers are all believers in the doctrines of grace.
This Testimony was established in 1918, they promote the works of B.W.Newton, J.C.Ryle, S.P.Tregelles, C.Y.Biss, G.Muller, D.Baron (Jewish convert to Christ)and others. These were all historical pre-millennialists who held to Calvin's soteriology, as I do. Calvin was a reformer (remember he WAS a Roman Catholic priest!!!) What great darkness he was delivered from???? Do I believe and hold to everything Calvin taught? Of course not, but his soteriology is entirely biblical, (from my own studies) likewise with Luther (another previous Roman Catholic priest), did not his understanding of justification by faith alone start the Reformation? He said "freewill is a name for nothing" so it is.
Are we not guilty of not realising how big the world is outside of the immediate circles that we walk within?
Why do I post as "anonymous"? Well I visit many blog sites and web pages all around the world. I have been called a blasphemer many times because I hold to the Bible's/Calvin's/Augustine's teachings on election/pre-destination. In fact I was horrified when I first realised that Augustine's/Calvin's teachings agreed with Scripture!
As J.C.Ryle said "If God didn't choose me I would NEVER have chosen Him."
The whole world is opposed to what the Bible teaches?
May we all grow in grace and truth.
Treena,
ReplyDeleteHave you read Jacob Prasch's "Shadows Of The Beast"? I read it in its entirety within 10 days of its launch in May 2011. There were many grammatical mistakes and typographical errors in this first edition of which I informed Jacob.
On page 20 Jacob says "...more pastors and individuals are progressively realising the erroneous nature of Pre-Tribulationism..." On page 21 he continues "The Rapture and the Resurrection cannot and shall not take place until the faithful believers can identify the ultimate two beasts of Revelation chapter 13. The popular myth asserting the contrary as if it were an exegetical fact is a dangerous myth which must be debunked as a deception perpetrated against the Elect." On page 22 he continues in his attack on pre-trib doctrine (rightly so!) "a myth that must be urgently de-bunked for the ludicrous and auto-destructive erroneous folly it is."
Now, I say a heartily loud Amen to what Prasch has said against the unbiblical error (there is much else!) of Dispensational theology, namely the pre-trib rapture.
I only quote these words of Prasch to redress what you said in your last post above "Prior to this I think everyone was able to disagree about the timing of the rapture without a major problem..." Well, very clearly not! Prasch has called (four years ago) those that hold to pre-tribulationism, deceivers! It is because of such words Prasch was demoted from a "good apple" to a "bad apple" on soundchristian.com! (no bad thing!)
Now, please understand that I am not being critical of your expose of the "defective eschatology" of pre-tribulationism, I applaud and support your commendable efforts. I am just saying that this issue has ALWAYS without exception since the early brethren years been a VERY divisive issue! Some (pre-trib)would say Prasch's words as said above were tantamount to a "vicious attack" (as you said Wilkinson's was?).
It is so good that Jacob quotes the Elect-God's chosen ones, even though he is misguided in his opposition to Calvinism!
May we all grow in grace and truth.
Dear Anonymous
ReplyDeleteYes I do have a copy of Shadows Of The Beast. I think we have to take into account that American spellings and grammar differ from the English. I thought it was an excellent book. What I meant was that Wilkinson specifically called into question the ministries of Joe Schimmel and Jacob Prasch - it was extremely personal and offensive. Wilkinson calls anyone who does not believe in pre-trib a heretic, which is ridiculous. I do know that the Darby was a very unpleasant character, but what I meant was the recent past. Having done some further research on pre-trib, I smell a very large rat. I would agree with JP that pre-trib must be urgently de-bunked as a dangerous deception against the elect. God bless you.
Treena,
ReplyDeleteI am aware of the American spelling/grammar-it has caused no small confusion, especially previously being a home educator using the American PACE system!
Are you aware of a website called Discerning the world? It is hosted by a pair called Tom and Deborah from South Africa? They attack the doctrine of pre-destination/election by constantly attacking the straw man known as Calvin. They are also very staunch defenders of the pre-trib rapture deception. Some time after Jacob Prasch's Shadows of the Beast was released there ensued a most unpleasant (to put it mildly!) exchange between DTW and Jacob.
Yes, this rapture doctrine will always be a "divisive" issue, not that I want it to be, but I believe it is part of the "falling away" prophesied in 2 Thessalonians 2.3.
God bless you.
Thank you Anonymous. I was not aware of the unpleasantness between DWT and Jacob Prasch. I do believe that the rapture debate has escalated disproportionately due to Paul Wilkinson's outrageous accusations against Joe Schimmel and Jacob Prasch. I have been doing some further research, and I am actually in the process of writing another piece about this subject. I had not thought of it as part of the "falling away" until quite recently, but I have to say, sadly, that you may be correct. The main arguments of Pre-Trib proponents such as Thomas Ice and Paul Wilkinson simply do not add up and their version of the history is very tenuous. I had always felt that this should not be a divisive issue, but these men appear to be deliberate deceivers, which makes it a totally different ball game. God bless you x
ReplyDeleteDerby was a freemason
ReplyDeletehttp://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/darby_j.html
ReplyDelete"There is no available record of John Nelson Darby (November 18, 1800 - April 29, 1882) having any masonic association, nor is there any reason to suggest that he may have been a freemason. It is curious though, since many of the attacks on Freemasonry come from Dispensational Fundamentalists, that one of their leaders would use Freemasonry to illustrate his teachings."
"Supposing we were a body of Freemasons, and a person were excluded from one lodge by the rules of the order, and instead of looking to the lodge to review the case, if it was thought to be unjust, each other lodge were to receive him or not on their own independent authority, it is clear the unity of the Freemason system is gone. Each lodge is an independent body acting for itself. It is in vain to allege a wrong done, and the lodge not being infallible; the competent authority of lodges, and the unity of the whole, is at an end. The system is dissolved. There may be provision for such difficulties. All right if it be needed. But the proposed remedy is the mere pretension of the superiority of the recusant lodge, and a dissolution of Freemasonry.
"On Ecclesiastical Independency", The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby, John Nelson Darby. Edited by William Kelly. London : G. Morrish, [1867-1900?] 34 vol. ; 8o. vol. 14. p. 305.
It is not of man. Christ is divine "wisdom" for us: God has made foolish the wisdom of this world, but "we speak wisdom among them that are perfect." He has "abounded towards us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known unto us the mystery of his will." (See Eph. 1: 8-10.) The divine revelation of all God’s thoughts and intentions is in Christ; "the wisdom of God in a mystery," which word means what only the initiated understand: as in Freemasonry, I do not know anything about it because I am not initiated."
"Deliverance from the Law of Sin", Collected Writings. vol 32. p. 339.
Hi Treena,
ReplyDeleteI was only quoting what I read on your previous article back in 2013. quote;-PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE?
MacArthur is also a pre-tribulationist: “the imminent pre-tribulation rapture is not stated, but is between the lines of the verses.”
The pre-tribulation theory originated in 1830 with dispensational cult leader John Nelson Darby who was a Freemason and an occultist. There is speculation that Darby may have plagiarised the theory from a heretical group of people called the Irvingites. In any event, the pre-tribulation rapture theory was unknown in the church prior to 1830.
enjoy all your articles Treena just read this thats all
I have read very extensively (not exhaustively!) into the Plymouth Brethren, its history, why they split into the Open and Exclusive branches and much else, but I don't remember at any time Darby being associated with freemasonry!
ReplyDeleteRegards the elect being deceived by the false pre-trib doctrine, it is obvious that God's elect will NOT be deceived by such teaching is taught by the Lord in Matthew 24.22-24. His words are specifically addressed to those believers in Judea/south Israel at the time of His Second Coming, as can be seen in the context. However pre-trib teachers tell us that the warnings in Matthew 24 are for unbelieving Jews! Why would they listen?
It is interesting that only the pre-trib teachers were taken in by the blood moons fiasco, because obviously those that can read their Bibles will see that these signs come AFTER the great tribulation Matthew 24.29!
As for Thomas Ice, he has tried his best to re-write history?
God bless.
Thank you for your input Anonymous. I think there is a question mark about Darby and Freemasonry, but no evidence apart from his obvious affinity with them through his writings. As for John MacArthur, what possible confidence should we put in a man who says that it is OK to take the mark of the beast and still be saved? He is so high and mighty that he will not even deign to answer his critics personally. There is good evidence that Darby was a plagiarist and that pre-trib originated with Irving. The DVD Left Behind or Led Astray goes into the history very accurately. God bless you x
ReplyDeleteThe falling away "apostasia" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) occurs prior to Matthew 24:22-24 which is connected with the acceleration of the advent (1 Corinthians 7:29). God bless x
ReplyDeleteTreena, you did a great article on Freemasonry many months back and I cannot find it on your blog, maybe you could do another one about it, only if he Lord leads you though. I also enjoyed your in-depth article on Halloween so informative regarding these wicked things and what to watch out for. Also all this pre-trib post-trib I am learning all the time thank you.
ReplyDeleteTreena, you did a great article on Freemasonry many months back and I cannot find it on your blog, maybe you could do another one about it, only if he Lord leads you though. I also enjoyed your in-depth article on Halloween so informative regarding these wicked things and what to watch out for. Also all this pre-trib post-trib I am learning all the time thank you.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your encouragement anon - I will repost my haloween one now it is getting close. I will look up the freemason one as well. God bless tx
ReplyDeleteWinSC,
ReplyDeleteFollowing this blog and your teachings on it. I researched anon's mention of Prasch and DTW. I looked on DTW and it is disturbing reading. Do any seriously believe that was Jacob saying all those horrible things? I found aslo a site by the name of Last days watchman by a man called Chingford who seems to agree with DTW. Surely a man like Prasch would be too clever to sink this low?
What do you think?
From what I have briefly read, Chingford brought up outdated information about Jacob Prasch. What did he hope to gain by bringing up Lausanne, Billy Graham etc. Jacob Prasch has not been involved with these movements for many years, and he has publicly distanced himself from them. I agree entirely with Jacob Prasch's estimation of pretribulationalism. In my opinion the PTRC are crooked through and through; they have no biblical or historical evidence to promote pre-trib. Their reasons seem to be entirely other!
ReplyDeleteI believe what you say to be true in respect of Chingford. Prasch teaches against Romanism/ecumenism, and as you say jumped ship ages ago, we are all learning. It was the verbal diatribe that I was referring to. Do you believe Prasch would have uttered such a tirade? Personally, I wouldn't have thought he would have been capable of such an outburst, irrespective of any false claims laid against him.
ReplyDeleteI cannot answer that question Anonymous.
ReplyDelete