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Sunday, 17 July 2016

jacob prasch moriel ministries: say what! the seven year tribulation debunked!

Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! (Psalm 139:7-8)

I am writing this post because some people hang onto every word Jacob Prasch speaks as though he were infallible. I am in the process of writing a longer piece concerning JPs dogmatic assertion that the Restrainer of 2 Thessalonians is the Holy Spirit. In my view this assertion is not only wrong, it is presumptuous - the scriptures do not name the restrainer! IF JP's claim about the restrainer is incorrect, then not only does it misrepresent God (Psalm 139:7-8); it also puts a skewed emphasis on the 70th week of Daniel. Similarly, his claim for a seven year tribulation also puts a skewed emphasis on the 70th week. Prior to Darby, no one ever taught that the restrainer was the Holy Spirit. This teaching of JP is going to take some unravelling, but I am in the process of doing just that. JP's hostile reaction to my post I think reveals not only presumption; it also demonstrates an ungodly belligerence towards those who disagree with him or point out any error in his teaching.{1} This is a very bad sign in anyone who is an elder of a church and/or a teacher. (Titus 1:7-8; 1 Timothy 3:2; 1 Corinthians 5:11). In my view Jacob Prasch has become quite popish.

The extraordinary claim of Jacob Prasch: He defines the first half three and a half years of the 70th week as “tribulation” based on thlipsis in John 16:21:  

I am going to quote Jacob Prasch verbatim in order to avoid any possible accusation of quoting him out of context: 

JOHN 16

Jacob Prasch: "The Great Tribulation (indicates a shift from the tribulation of verse 9 to the intensification of Greater Tribulation that is 'Megalo Thelipsis' in verse 21). This commences with the 5th seal when the antichrist tries to wipe out as many believers as he can and marks the shift from tribulation to Great Tribulation when God stages a cosmic maelstrom and terrestrial seismic explosion and prepares to unleash His wrath with the 6th seal but first raptures the faithful believers during the interlude before the 7th seal."   

As translated by The New Testament Greek, Jesus clearly and directly refers to the ':Beginning of Birth pangs" as "Thelipsis' / TRIBULATION in John 16:21. If she had only read John chapter 16 from where both of these issues of the Holy Spirit's current function and the nature of the birth pangs are addressed and explained by Jesus, she would know that for herself.

.....in verse 9 of Matthew 24 Jesus shifts from an already existing tribulation to the Great Tribulation (Theslipsis Macro) in verse 21 when Satan tries to kill us all via agency of anti christ etc.

In John 16: 33, Jesus refers to 'tribulation' in the general sense used many times in scripture for believers in all ages. We have "tribulation" in the world.

However in this same John chapter 16 in verses 20-22, Jesus speaks of His Second Coming as being proceeded by the Birth Pangs seen in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and as is illustrated in the vision of the woman in travail in Revelation chapter 12
 

.....the Beginning of Birth Pangs (corresponding to the four horseman of the Apocalypse) followed by the shift to Great Tribulation when the believers are horribly persecuted (akin to what happened to the Jews in the holocaust) during the first half of the 7 years can be called 'Tribulation'.

In John 16: 20-22 speaking of these Birth Pangs preceding His return Jesus calls them (as translated in every Greek manuscript and codex we have) "THELIPSIS" (John 16: 22) 


'But When She Gives Birth She No Longer Remembers The TRIBULATION (THELIPSIS).'

The term 'thelipsis' moreover is applied here as an obstetric term for very good reason. Its Greek etymology is not simply 'pressure' but 'Constriction' as in contractions of maternal labour."
{1}

BIRTH PAINS

The fallacy that John 16 refers to tribulation:

John 16 DOES NOT refer to the 70th week and the supposed "seven year tribulation". The PRIMARY MEANING of John 16 is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the birth of the church. The disciples would "weep and lament" - they would be "sorrowful", but their sorrow would turn to joy (verse 20). ....you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. (John 16:22) Jesus refers to his post-resurrection appearances and the permanent presence of the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, as a result of his departure (cf. 14:17). The disciples DID NOT experience persecution during the time that they were weeping/lamenting/sorrowful. If THE PRIMARY MEANING does not speak of tribulation, why should any SECONDARY MEANING? Most translators have "anguish" (thlipsis v21) and not tribulation or persecution. JP has twisted thlipsis to fit his own interpretation - this is a dishonest use of the context! (2 Peter 3:16-17).  

Matthew 24/Revelation 6 

There is of course "general tribulation" as we all know (John 16:33). However Matthew 24 speaks specifically about the end of the age.... "when will these things be..." (verse 3).

The first four seals broken in Revelation 6:1-8 correspond with the birth pains in Matthew 24. The great tribulation corresponds with the breaking of the fifth seal Revelation 6. 

For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. (Matthew 24:5-8)  (the beginning of birth pains/the four horsemen)

It is important to notice that the beginning of birth pains/the four horsemen are WORLD WIDE PHENOMENA, they do not specifically apply to the tribulation of the church as JP teaches.

The tribulation follows the birth pains in Matthew 24:5-8.... THEN verse 9..... In other words, JP's suggestion that tribulation is associated with the beginning of birth pains is incorrect. There is no disconnect between “the tribulation” of verse 9 and “the great tribulation” of verse 21. The first word in verse 15 is THEREFORE - oún (a conjunction: therefore, now then, accordingly so - typically translated "therefore" which means, "By extension, here's how the dots connect".

VERSE 9: “THEN they will deliver you up to TRIBULATION and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. verse 15: THEREFORE (οὖν) when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel...... verse 21: For then there will be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be (Matthew 24:9-21)  Mark 13 confirms the sequence of events in Matthew 24.

JP: "However in this same John chapter 16 in verses 20-22, Jesus speaks of His Second Coming as being proceeded by the Birth Pangs seen in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and as is illustrated in the vision of the woman in travail in Revelation chapter 12." 

Revelation 12: The event that triggers the tribulation is Satan's expulsion from heaven when he is thrown down to earth (Revelation 12:7-12). The woman (Israel) will be divinely protected after the midweek abomination of desolation and during the subsequent reign of the Antichrist. (Revelation 12:16) AFTER THAT HAPPENS the Antichrist turns his attention towards believers: THEN the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. (Revelation 12:17)

Once again, no specific "tribulation" is mentioned prior to the mid point of the 70th week. 

The word thlipsis appears a total of 45 times in the NT.

A few examples of thlipsis:


There will be tribulation (thlipsis) and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, (Romans 2:5-9)

Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation (thlipsin), unless they repent of her works, (Revelation 2:22)

…..since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction (thlipsin) those who afflict (thlibousin) you, (2 Thessalonians 1:6)

(thlíbō is the root of thlipsin)

When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish (thlipseōs) for joy that a human being has been born into the world. (John 16:21)

Clearly the context defines the meaning of thlipsis and it does not always apply to the persecution of believers. Beware of those who twist the scriptures to suit their own interpretation - teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9 ). The context of John 16:21 is NOT indicative of persecution.

Interestingly, close associate of JP, David Nathan of Bread of Life Ministries and Moriel South Africa, teaches categorically that the restrainer is not the Holy Spirit, but that he is the Archangel Michael. He explains the phrase: "At that time" Daniel 12:1 refers to Israel and the end times, and that Michael will "stand aside" (Hebrew amad): "That is who is restraining, it is Michael, the angel that God has set over his people Israel." {2} David Nathan not only confirms the pre-wrath position, he also confirms that a seven year tribulation is definitely not found in the scriptures.{3}

It is very unfortunate that JP has to make his parting shot a personal attack and a rant on his latest false teaching on this subject:

JP: "I wish they (anyone who disagrees with him) would spend more time studying the word of God before attempting to elicidate about it without knowing what they are talking about.... blabbing nonsense when they don't even know what they are saying... patent nonsense...." {4}

This really is unconscionable behaviour from a so-called man of God. These kind of remarks do nothing for JP's argument or witness, rather displays of irreverent behaviour towards other members of the Body of Christ grieves the Holy Spirit (James 3:9-12). I suggest that my readers test JP's teaching for themselves and decide whether he rightly divides the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15). 

There are some very interesting observations on m'kayla's korner: https://mkayla.wordpress.com/2016/07/13/an-encounter-with-a-madman-or-two/

{1} http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/the-rapture-holy-spirit-and-restrainer_25.html#comments
{2} Eschataology Part 7 (The seven seals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmUbFG064X8
{3} Eschataology Part 5 (The False Prophet and the Mark of the Beast): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjrhyvlUbqY
{4} https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3_QuhOnG9U

14 comments:

colin said...

I think "convoluted" is a word that well describes Jacob's teaching in respect to Daniel's 70th week. The mark of a good teacher is one that would clarify/simplify the Scriptures and present them in a way that can be understood by the common man. J.C.Ryle (historic pre-millennialist) had this ability, he used basic English in ALL his writings. But, it seems to me that Jacob is trying to do the exact opposite!
To say that the tribulation period is 7 years is the same as saying there are 24 months in a year, is it not?
If Jacob keeps refining his teaching, he might end up a full blown pre-tribulationist! For his teaching declares that believers are raptured before the tribulation is over!
If people would be honest with God's word and teach the tribulation period is 42 months, a lot of difficulties would disappear. But, then the pre-trib rapture could occur just prior to the "midst of the week", and the mid trib rapture would turn into a pre-wrath rapture at the 21 month point! And this would cause all sorts of other theological difficulties!

As for this Mordecai/covering nonsense, that wants binning along with Derek Prince's teachings!
God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

You know Colin I had hoped to see an improvement in JP's behaviour, but it is actually deteriorating! I have added a paragraph or so to this post in light of his latest outburst. Actually Pharoah comes to mind... "Pharoah hardened his heart" Exodus 8. You cannot do this kind of damage to the Body of Christ indefinitely without consequences.

colin said...

Just watched the beginning and ending of that video.
First of all; someone should tell Moriel that Northern Ireland IS a constituent unit of the United Kingdom, unless of course she has had a recent referendum that I haven't heard of?

Jacob said "We have never taught that the Holy Spirit is taken from believers/individuals, we simply say that He is taken from His function in convicting the world of sin...." He goes on!

Despite his attempts to say otherwise; this teaching of his separates law from grace, two ways of salvation; he says plainly (unless I have misheard?) that "the Holy Spirit is taken from convicting the world of sin." In other words people can be saved without the gracious operations of the Holy Spirit!

I do wish he would speak in plain English.

Is no one allowed to question this man's teachings? What is a Christian supposed to blog about?

God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

To heap personal insults and to attempt to belittle others within the Body of Christ is unworthy behaviour of any Christian, let alone a leader/teacher. We should be particularly careful about damaging the Body of Christ and grieving the Holy Spirit:

"Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:29-32 cf.Colossians 3:8)

The Bible tells us not to associate with verbal abusers (revilers) bearing the name of "brother" (1 Corinthians 5:11) It appears that there is a very ugly side to JP and Moriel - JP is a habitual reviler who remains unrepentant... the trickle of those complaining about his verbal abuse has grown into a veritable stream. Moriel is not a nice "ministry".

I have actually proved scripturally that the tribulation is NOT SEVEN YEARS in my post above. JP must find it very humiliating to be exposed... but nevertheless his 7 year tribulation invention is entirely wrong. Furthermore, his Restrainer invention/doctrine is unsustainable and presumptious! Perhaps this explains his appalling behaviour in calling my exposition "nonsense" - I suggest that this is a smoke screen/defence mechanism to cover his scripture twisting.

We all have a choice... if we do not turn away from error, then I believe that God will allow us to fall into greater error - a little leaven (Galatians 5:9). If we do not love the truth or respond to correction then there are serious consequences.

Teachers have a greater responsibility in this area and will be judged more strictly (James 3:1)

If we judge ourselves, we will not be judged by the Lord (1 Corinthians 11:31-32).

I have a sense that if JP does not put this matter right then the Lord will deal with him. I have had some thoughts about Pharoah hardening his own heart.(Exodus 8) JP is playing with fire!

God bless you Colin

Anonymous said...

Prasch hasn't done himself any favours in this debate in my opinion. You have obviously great conviction in what you believe as others here. I don't fully understand everything about this restrainer/great trib issue, but I do know Prasch is wrong to respond in the way he has. I too find him difficult to understand.
He almost needs a PR man, he would have told him not to get involved and bless the lady!
You can't bully people into believing something.
Thanks.

Treena Gisborn said...

Out of the abundance of the heart the keyboard speaketh... (Matthew 12:34)

Tim Wirth seems to have a big influence over JP these days:

https://closingstages.net/2016/07/18/the-boredom-of-jacob-prasch-and-his-rant/

Anonymous said...

70 AD was a terrible tribulation for the jews so many killed in the worst way possible maybe millions christians back then suffered horrible tribulation at the hand of most of the rulers So many people identified themselves as the Christ and led people astray and to their death I know there is a controversy over who the restrainer was some say a rule ajc

Treena Gisborn said...

70AD was a terrible tribulation... Jesus' prophecy of the destruction of the temple was fulfilled at that time. The preterist view is that the great tribulation occurred in 70AD, but this cannot be the case. Rome was generally thought to be the Restrainer by the early church fathers.

All authority over the nations will be given over to the Antichrist during the great tribulation which disproves the human government/restrainer theory.

"Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation," Revelation 13:7.

Thank you Anonymous. God bless.



Monopode said...

I don't know what Prasch and his people are thinking. Whatever we believe about the end times, timing of the rapture and identity of the restrainer we should not misrepresent scripture. I've been over John 16 looking for a link to the great tribulation and I cannot find one. He is very keen about exegesis in other teachings but isn't following that approach here. I don't know what to say.

Treena Gisborn said...

You are right Monopode. I think that JP has lost his mind. God bless

colin said...

Quite a statement to make! "I think that JP has lost his mind."?

But, when people are being plainly dishonest with Scripture, we certainly must beware, and follow "what is written" rather than false teaching. Even 99% truth plus 1% error = error?

In your opinion, where does this 'seven year great tribulation/restrainer' issue leave the 'classical' (if I may call it that) pre-wrath rapture doctrine? I just looked in Van Kampen's (who first developed Pre-wrath) "The Rapture Question Answered" and on page 124 VK says (in italics on 2 Thess 7-8) WHO THE RESTRAINER IS HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS PAUL IS GIVING HERE. I am not sure if VK means the same applies to Matthew 24 (but, there again, it would HAVE to?). VK goes through all the possible candidates for the identity of the A/c, and concludes "I think a strong case can be made for the restrainer being the archangel Michael."

Regarding Christians being persecuted in the great tribulation I remember Dr Richard Kent once saying on RTV "Jesus is not a wife beater"! (don't you just hate that statement?-often quoted by pre-trib folk).
God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

I do believe Jacob Prasch is not in his right mind Colin. I know it is a strong statement to make. I have been listening to his latest about the Restrainer again, and I believe I have now identified the source of the confusion with this teaching. I am writing a further post which I will publish hopefully later today.

We should consider with some trepidation the ramifications of identifying the Holy Spirit as the Restrainer, since it not only misrepresents God himself, it also precludes the Gentiles from hearing receiving the gospel during the 70th week of Daniel! Why does JP make a "doctrine" i.e. "The Doctrine Of The Holy Spirit" out of a non essential question? It is the height of presumption!

I have Van Kampen's book as well and it makes sense to me that the rapture will happen in between the 6th and 7th seal of Revelation. I agree with Van Kampen about the restrainer - but his identity is not essential for our understanding I believe.

I do hate that statement Colin - it is very foolish to refer to Jesus as a "wife beater".

God bless

Anonymous said...

Treena,

An excellent expose. Twisting and manipulating scripture is how cults are formed. Very worrying indeed given as you say some people think he's infallible.

God bless you,

James Pollard

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you James. I am responding in this post to JP's comment on my previous post where he calls me "an unmitigated disaster":

"Neither Colin nor Treena quote me accurately but more importantly, Sister Treena does not correctly handle God's Word in this regard. As always, it is TEXT CONTEXT CO TEXT. She does not seem particularly too careful about context, but she is frankly an unmitigated disaster in the area of co-text."

"Treena seems to be denying that the Beginning of Birth Pangs (corresponding to the four horseman of the Apocalypse) followed by the shift to Great Tribulation when the believers are horribly persecuted (akin to what happened to the Jews in the holocaust) during the first half of the 7 years can be called "Tribulation". She seems to contend that tribulation and Great Tribulation are the same and only takes place during the second half of the final 7 years.

With respect, Jesus disagrees with her, and therefore so do I.

In John 16: 20-22 speaking of these Birth Pangs preceding His return Jesus calls them (as translated in every Greek manuscript and codex we have) "THELIPSIS" (John 16: 22)

'But When She Gives Birth She No Longer Remembers The 'TRIBULATION' (THELIPSIS).'"

I think I can confidently say that Jesus disagrees with Jacob Prasch in this instance.

http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/jacob-prasch-rapture-holy-spirit-and.html#comments

God bless you.