(13) Rev Series: The Gog and Magog War- When? - YouTube
I am very sorry to see Joe Schimmel join the bandwagon with other "prophecy experts" who feel that they just have to fit Gog and Magog in somewhere before the end of the present age. Schimmel is, in all probability, correct in his belief that this battle cannot occur prior to, or during, the 70th week of Daniel. However, to situate Ezekiel 38-39 at Armageddon is very problematic. I have recently written a few posts debunking the main proponent of this view, Joel Richardson, who has some very questionable teachings and associations. I am surprised that Schimmel gives this man any credibility. We should probably take into account that Gog/Magog is not mentioned at all in the epistles. The epistles warn of "many antichrists" and false teachers, but Gog is conspicuous by his absence. (1 John 2:18).
Schimmel claims to have some kind of insight that Islam will play a prevalent role in eschatological events. However, he needs to prove this assertion from the scriptures! Eisegetical comparisons with Revelation 16 are not sufficient evidence to convince anyone.
The concern amongst many Christians over the growth of Islam is of course a major factor in the particular teaching that the Antichrist will be Islamic. However, the scriptures clearly state that the religion of the Antichrist will bear no resemblance to any previous religion or belief system. Irrespective of his background or nationality, the Antichrist will follow a different god entirely:
He shall honor the god of fortresses instead of these. A god whom his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. (Daniel 11:38).
I think it is a reasonable deduction that the Antichrist will suppress Islam during the first half of the 70th week of Daniel prior to the abomination of desolation event. He will humiliate the king of the south (Egypt) during that period and he will invade many countries. (Daniel 11:40 cf. Revelation 13:4; Daniel 11:22). Barnes: "Like a flood he shall spread his armies over these countries." {1} Perhaps we should consider whether the incessant fear mongering concerning Islam amongst some "prophecy experts" is a red herring after all?
At the time of the end, the king of the south shall attack him, but the king of the north shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships. And he shall come into countries and shall overflow and pass through. (Daniel 11:40).
I have contacted Blessed Hope a few times over different issues in the past, and every time I have done so I have been disappointed. Various people, myself included, reached out to Schimmel concerning the severe problems caused by Jacob Prasch some time ago. A number of believers were very hurt and damaged by Prasch's viscous attacks and slanderous accusations and would have benefitted from some support. However, there was no response whatsoever from Schimmel. This was disappointing considering the seriousness of the issues involved, and the fact that Schimmel had teamed up with Prasch in the past. I personally was slandered by Prasch, but I have not suffered as others have. Having survived the abuses of charismania, I seem to be immune to personal attacks from unwholesome characters thank God.
I also reached out to Good Fight Ministries with concerns about their problematic post-trib rapture view. I did initially receive a response from a member of their team, and I was led to believe that Schimmel would address this subject in a future programme, but he failed to do so. I contacted Blessed Hope again to question Schimmel's approval of alleged "Church Father" Victorinus, who is definitely unreliable. Once again I was ignored. I have also unsuccessfully challenged Schimmel's repeated use of the term "tribulation" to refer to the entire 70th week of Daniel. This may seem like a small detail to some, but this terminology is used by the pre-trib camp, and it is unbiblical and confusing. Should we be using incorrect terminology and pander to the false ideas of those who are misled? (1 Thessalonians 2:4). Recently I left a comment on one of Schimmel's videos suggesting that their viewers refer to J Paul Tanner's publication: Daniel's "King of the North": Do We Owe Russia An Apology? JETS_35-3_315-328_Tanner.pdf (etsjets.org) but my comment was removed. I find that Blessed Hope Chapel's practice of ghosting anyone who attempts to politely challenge Schimmel is very odd indeed and I shall not attempt to reach out to them again. Blessed Hope's modus operandi appears to be to completely ignore anyone who questions them. This makes them no better than any other ministry promoting questionable doctrines whilst loudly praising the Lord and ignoring genuine questions and concerns! The Hillsong crowd are a good example of this. Schimmel does go after low hanging fruit, but he tends to ignore the more insidious false teachers, and at times he even praises them!
Below are excerpts from my recent post concerning the Gog/Armageddon view as promoted by Joel Richardson. I recommend that readers of this post refer to Chris White's book The Islamic Antichrist Debunked which he reads aloud on YouTube: (13) The Islamic Antichrist Theory Debunked - FULL 8 HOUR - AUDIO BOOK - Bible Prophecy - YouTube This video is quite involved and lengthy, but it is definitely worth considering White's points. His eye opening exposé of Walid Shoebat, who co-authored the book God's War on Terror with Richardson, should send believers scurrying away from these two characters posthaste. Another man who has exposed Richardson and Shoebat is Keith Malcomson. Notwithstanding Malcomson's Gog/Magog view, this video is an excellent exposure of Richardson and Shoebat: (13) Will The Antichrist Be A Muslim by Keith Malcomson - YouTube Malcomson aptly points out that believers should take pains to carefully examine novel teachings before adopting them into their belief system. (1 John 4:1). Richardson's latest associate, Dalton Thomas (Frontier Alliance International), also has some very questionable teachings and is disqualified from the ministry: mikereynolds.org
Richardson: End Time Talks 14: Six Reasons Gog is the Antichrist - YouTube
The only verse in the NT that specifically mentions Gog and Magog is Revelation 20:8: ..and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle. A plain reading of the text suggests that the Gog/Magog conflict occurs at the end of the millennium. There are similarities between the Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 38 and 39 and Armageddon, but the differences are too significant to gloss over.
Joel Richardson's six reasons why Gog is the Antichrist debunked. (1 John 4:1).
1. The Lord's name will no longer be profaned or blasphemed following God/Magog's alleged defeat at "Armageddon".
And my holy name I will make known in the midst of my people Israel, and I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. (Ezekiel 39:7).
Richardson repeatedly fails to make a distinction between Israel and the nations in his eisegesis of Ezekiel 39:7. When the Gog/Magog event is applied to Armageddon there is a huge problem. Ezekiel 39:7 consists of two clauses: During the millennium Israel will no longer profane the Lord's holy name as they formerly did. (Ezekiel 36:23 cf. Leviticus 22:32; Ezekiel 20:9; 38:23). The second part of this verse ..and the nations shall know that I am the Lord is a separate clause. The KJV makes this even clearer:
So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. (Ezekiel 39:7 KJV).
Ezekiel 39:21-22 confirms and personalizes Israel's unique relationship with the Lord following the defeat of Gog/Magog. Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God.. However, the nations relationship with God is markedly different: they will know that I am the Lord (notice the absence of "their God"). During the millennium, all forms of defilement and sin are excluded from Jerusalem. God's unique relationship with Israel is one of intimacy and is infinitely superior to the relationship He has with the nations. Sin will continue to exist on the earth amongst unregenerate people outside Jerusalem. This situation comes to a climax at the end of the millennium when Satan gains numerous supporters. (Revelation 20:8). As such it it undeniable that two distinct people groups exist during the millennium ~ God's people Israel and the nations.
And I will set my glory among the nations, and all the nations shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid on them. The house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God, from that day forward. (Ezekiel 39:21-22 cf. Ezekiel 36:36).
Problematically Richardson trivializes the events of Revelation 20:8 in favour of his Armageddon theory. There are indications that Armageddon and the Gog/Magog battle are related in some way, but similarities between two events do not indicate an identical situation. Revelation gives a clear indication that the fulfilment of Ezekiel 39:7 occurs at the end of the millennium. I believe that Richardson makes a similar error to the preterists in that he confuses short term and long term fulfilment of prophecy. In the case of the preterists, they confuse the end of the age and the destruction of Jerusalem in the Olivet Discourse, whereas Richardson does the same thing with Armageddon and the Gog/Magog battle.
Further evidence
It is by no means a "given" that all the heathen nations will willingly follow the Lord during the millennium. The unconverted nations inclination towards passive resistance to Jesus' rule is anticipated in the scriptures: And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. (Zechariah 14:17). There will be peace on the earth at that time due to Jesus' "iron rule". The "rod of iron" primarily applies to the day of the Lord i.e. God's wrath. This period extends into the millennium during Jesus' theocratic rule. (Revelation 19:15; Psalm 2:9; Revelation 12:5). Many nations willingly acknowledge the Lord during the millennium, but there do appear to be exceptions. (Micah 4:2; Isaiah 2:3). The definition of profanity is irreverence or disrespect. The warning in Zechariah 4:17 anticipates irreverence and passive opposition to Jesus' rule by at least some of the heathen nations during the millennium. At the end of the millennium Satan will be released from the Abys to deceive the nations (Gog/Magog). At that time God's name will be openly profaned. (Revelation 20:3,7-9). The sheer numbers who are deceived by Satan at the end of the millennium is staggering.. their number is like the sand of the sea. (Revelation 20:8 cf. Isaiah 11:6-9). This demonstrates that the relationship between some of the nations and Jesus during the millennium is tenuous at best, and that their propensity to be deceived and to openly rebel is activated by Satan with apparent ease within a short period of time. (Revelation 20:3,7-8). If the above observations are correct, then Richardson has misinterpreted Ezekiel 39:7 by inserting the nations into a statement specifically applicable to Israel.
2. The Gentile nations will be judged after Armageddon
This point is easily refuted. The Gentiles nations
..will know that I am God.. Ezekiel 39:6-7 does not equate to repentance and a personal relationship with God (as above). The Gentile nations will be judged before the great white throne judgement
after the Gog/Magog battle and
after Satan's final defeat. The destruction of the Antichrist's armies at Armageddon leaves the nations forces decimated and unable to muster any further resistance to the Lord's return. (Revelation 20:21). This event is significant, but the judgement of the nations
does not occur until the end of the millennium:
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:7-15).
3. The Lord is physically present in Israel (Ezekiel 39:19-20)
No one with premillennial beliefs would dispute that Jesus will be physically present in Israel following Armageddon, during the millennium and throughout the eternal state.
A number of pre-trib rapture premillennials hold the view that the Gog/Magog battle will occur prior to Armageddon. For instance, Bill Salus proposes that Ezekiel 38 and 39 are about to be fulfilled. Andy Woods (Sugar Land Bible Church) teaches that Ezekiel 38 happens at at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week when the second seal is broken. While I disagree with these views, Richardson's argument that Hebrew pe·nei = face in Ezekiel 38:20 proves God's physical presence is disingenuous. In fact pe-nei occurs a number of times in the Old Testament in contexts that do not in fact denote the Lord's physical presence. For instance: The face (pe-nei) of the LORD is against those who do evil, to cut off the memory of them from the earth. (Psalm 34:16). David sought the face (pe·nei) of the Lord in 2 Samuel 21:1 etc. I only add this detail to demonstrate Richardson's weak exegesis. There are valid reasons that the Gog/Magog event will not happen either prior to or during the 70th week of Daniel, but this is not one of them.
Every living creature in the sea?
If Ezekiel 38:20 does refer to Armageddon then there is a difficulty. The first six bowls of God's wrath, specifically the second bowl, involves the death of every living creature in the sea:
The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing died that was in the sea. (Revelation 16:3).
The fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the people who are on the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence. (Ezekiel 38:20).
Richardson fails to resolve the fish of the sea quaking at God's presence and the death i.e. the non existence of all the fish of the sea in Revelation 16:3 prior to Armageddon. Once again, this is a tangible problem that Richardson fails to address.
4. The text specifically says that Gog is judged and destroyed at the Day of the Lord
Behold, it is coming and it will be brought about, declares the Lord GOD. That is the day of which I have spoken. (Ezekiel 39:8).
The period known as
the Day of the Lord begins after the prewrath rapture of the church during the seventh seal trumpet and bowl judgements. (Revelation 8-11). This period
also applies to the thousand year period of Jesus' rule. As such there is no contradiction with the view that Gog is judged at
the Day of the Lord at the end of the millennium. There is no preliminary event described in the scriptures that would allow for Gog's judgement at an earlier point, including the problematic Armageddon theory. (Revelation 8:1-13).
5. All Israel is saved following the defeat of Gog/Magog
The house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God, from that day forward. (Ezekiel 39:22).Israel
shall know that the Lord is, and will always continue to be, their God. Ezekiel 39:25-29 summarizes the entire six night messages contained within the book of Ezekiel.
6. The Lord tells Gog that he is the Antichrist
Thus says the Lord GOD: Are you he of whom I spoke in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel, who in those days prophesied for years that I would bring you against them? (Ezekiel 38:17).
The problem with this argument is that no existing prophecy prior to Ezekiel's time actually mentions Gog by name. Various commentators have surmised that either Ezekiel refers to prophecies known in his day, but are no longer extant, or that Gog is prefigured in earlier prophecies.
The Antichrist has a number of titles and names in the scriptures, but he is never referred to as Gog. e.g. the beast (Revelation 11:7); the lawless one (2 Thessalonians 2:89; Daniel 7:25); the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3); the son of perdition (2 Thessalonians 2:3); the little horn (Daniel 7:8,24; Daniel 8:9) the worthless shepherd (Zechariah 11:16-17).
Further points
The additional points below are not exhaustive by any means. There are many additional problems with Richardson's view that I have not included here.
In the latter years
After a long time you will be summoned. In the latter years you will enter a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. (Ezekiel 38:8).
The prophecy against Gog
On that day, thoughts will come into your mind, and you will devise an evil scheme and say, ‘I will go up against the land of unwalled villages. I will fall upon the quiet people who dwell securely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having no bars or gates,’ to seize spoil and carry off plunder, to turn your hand against the waste places that are now inhabited, and the people who were gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell at the center of the earth. Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all its leaders will say to you, ‘Have you come to seize spoil? Have you assembled your hosts to carry off plunder, to carry away silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods, to seize great spoil?’ (Ezekiel 38:10-13).
Unwalled Villages
The Antichrist's covenant of false peace with Israel at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel cannot be identified with Armageddon. (Daniel 9:27). At the mid point of the week, the so called false peace will be shattered at the abomination of desolation event. (Daniel 12:11; Matthew 24:15). Subsequently the Antichrist will launch the greatest persecution of all time against the Jewish people. In other words, there is no peace in Israel prior to the battle of Armageddon i.e. during the second half of the 70th week of Daniel. (Matthew 24:21).
The only possibly explanation for Gog's attack against "unwalled villages" in Ezekiel 38:11 is when God's enemies have been destroyed and Satan is incarcerated in the abyss during the millennium when true peace will be established by Jesus. At the end of the millennium when Satan is released he will deceive the nations for the final battle. (Revelation 20:7-10).
For the Spoil
The Antichrist is victorious at the mid point of the 70th week of Daniel when he demands worship and declares himself to be God. (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:9,15-22). By the time Armageddon occurs, the Antichrist has already taken control of Jerusalem, he has put an end to sacrifice and offering; he has demanded worship and he has implemented the mark of the beast globally. (Daniel 9:27; Revelation 13:4,12-17). Apart from pockets of protection (i.e. the 144,000 and those who flee to the wilderness (Revelation 7:1-8,12:6)), Israel will be under the complete control of the Antichrist. Presumably, any "spoil" will have been seized at the mid point of the 70th week of Daniel or shortly thereafter. Are Israel "a quiet people who dwell securely" prior to Armageddon? At this point, the Jews have suffered the worst persecution imaginable and two thirds of them will have been slaughtered. (Zechariah 13:8). Jacobs trouble: And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. (Daniel 12:1 cf. Matthew 24:21). In other words, the argument that the Antichrist will come against Israel for plunder is a non-starter since he already has Israel (and the whole world) under his control.
The inconsistency of the Armageddon/Gog argument cannot be more obvious than it is in Ezekiel 38:10-13.
The problem of location
And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. (Revelation 16:16).
And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. (Revelation 20:9).
Tel Megiddo is frequently identified as the site where the kings of the earth p
repare to wage war on the forces of God under the satanic leadership of the Antichrist at the end of the present age. Armageddon
Har-Magedon (probably Hebrew
Hill of Megiddo), is located some 56 miles north of Jerusalem. The precise location of Armageddon is debated because the first syllable
ar stands for either
ir (city) or
har (mountain). Michael Heiser and others argue that there is no mountain called Megiddo, and therefore the plain of Megiddo is not the location of the final battle. Heiser's convoluted proposal is that Armageddon is a corruption of the Hebrew
Har Mo'ed (mount of assembly; cf. Isaiah 14:13), or of
Har Migdo (God's fruitful mountain) which he speculates is Zion. There is evidence that Isaiah 14:13 refers to Zaphon,
not Zion. I view Heiser with a certain amount of suspicion as he appears to be part of the NAR and he does not believe in a literal millennium. {3} Commentators generally agree that Armageddon alludes to the hill country surrounding the plain of Megiddo where many previous battles were fought by Israel. (Judges 5:19;
2 Kings 23:29;
2 Chronicles 35:22, cf.
Zechariah 12:11).
The object of the Antichrist's stand at Armageddon is to come against Jesus Christ and His visible armies (Revelation 19:19), it is not to take Jerusalem. If the location of Armageddon (above) is accurate, the Antichrist will fall on the plains of Megiddo. In Revelation 20:9 the enemies of God
surround the beloved city (Jerusalem). Gog and his armies will fall
"on the mountains of Israel" (Ezekiel 39:4 cf. Ezekiel 39:17). This information exposes another inconsistency in the Antichrist/Gog theory.
Primitive weapons (Ezekiel 39:9)
It seems doubtful that the Antichrist will utilize primitive weapons at Armageddon. The Antichrist will have access to all the worlds sophisticated weaponry, and arguably he will also have access to fallen angel technology. If this is the case, the weaponry of the Antichrist will be incredibly advanced. The spectacular success of the Antichrist and his unstoppable conquest of many nations indicates that he is an evil genius. (Daniel 8:3). After his apparent or real resurrection, he will literally become the incarnation of Satan. As such, nothing, including the earths weaponry, will be unavailable to him. (Revelation 13:13 cf. Matthew 4:9).
In contrast, it is conceivable that primitive weapons will be used at the end of the millennium by Gog and his hordes. During the millennium there will be no wars. As such weapons of war will be non existent and the technology for the production of modern weaponry will be inaccessible.
He shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide disputes for strong nations far away; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore; (Micah 4:3).
Thrown alive into the lake of fire or buried?
The Antichrist and the false prophet are
thrown alive into the lake of fire without undergoing bodily death. (Revelation 19:20). This seems to correspond to the earth swallowing up Korah and his company alive. (
Numbers 16:33 cf. Daniel 7:11).
The unequivocal statement that the Antichrist and false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire conflicts with the prophecy against Gog in Ezekiel 39. Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, will fall in the open field. Subsequently Gog and his multitude will be buried in the Valley of Travelers east of the sea. These details are very specific:
You shall fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your hordes and the peoples who are with you. I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. You shall fall in the open field, for I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD. I will send fire on Magog and on those who dwell securely in the coastlands, and they shall know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 39:4-6).
On that day I will give to Gog a place for burial in Israel, the Valley of the Travelers, east of the sea. It will block the travelers, for there Gog and all his multitude will be buried. It will be called the Valley of Hamon-gog. (Ezekiel 39:12).
My response to Richardson's feeble attempt to resolve this contradiction can be found at the end of this post.
If Richardson were to submit his thesis for evaluation by an unbiased academic body, it would be rejected outright due to its contradictions and lack of convincing evidence. (1 John 4:1). A strong case can be made that the Gog Magog event happens at the end of the millennium. At least that is what my bible says!
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10).
1. Daniel 11:40 Commentaries: "At the end time the king of the South will collide with him, and the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, with horsemen and with many ships; and he will enter countries, overflow them and pass through. (biblehub.com)
2. Ezekiel 38:17 Commentaries: Thus says the Lord GOD, "Are you the one of whom I spoke in former days through My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied in those days for many years that I would bring you against them? (biblehub.com)
3. Michael Heiser: Warning Signals (narwatchisrael.info)
3. (11) Premillennial and Amilllennial: Ruling and Reigning - Michael Heiser - YouTube
Further Reading
WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: DOES GOG MAGOG REFER TO RUSSIA? (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: JOE SCHIMMEL BLESSED HOPE CHAPEL: VICTORINUS IS UNRELIABLE (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: JOEL RICHARDSON: FALSE TEACHING THAT THE ANTICHRIST WILL BE KILLED (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION FALLACY (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
