GOOD FIGHT MINISTRIES: POST-TRIB RAPTURE CONFUSION

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki9EMQtEcPg
Good Fight Ministries - Not Appointed To Wrath

I haven't tackled the problems associated with the post-trib rapture view in any depth previously. I am in total agreement with Good Fight Ministries that the pre-trib view is highly speculative and dangerous. Pre-trib teachings expose believers to spiritual deception and puts them at serious risk of apostasy - as such pre-trib should be vigorously refuted. (Matthew 24:10). I do not consider that post-trib teaching has anything like the same level of error as pre-trib. However, the difficulties associated with this view are confusing to say the least! (1 Corinthians 14:33). I find it reasonable that savvy pretribulationists and others are unable to accept the post-trib position due to its various scriptural inconsistencies. For the sake of clarity, it must surely be necessary to iron out the difficulties associated with the post-trib view and to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).

1 Thessalonians 4 and 5

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not  grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

Now (δέ) concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3). 

The chapter division between 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 is is extremely unhelpful. It is unfortunate that this inappropriate break in the text often adds to the confusion regarding the timing of the rapture. In 1 Thessalonians 5:1, Paul makes the transition from the rapture to the day of the Lord (δέ = but, and, now, (a connective or adversative particle). {1} In other words, the times and seasons that Paul refers to are relevant to the preceding verses regarding those who are caught up (the rapture), but they are also relevant to the day of the Lord (the wrath). It appears that the post-trib camp merge both these events together into a 24 hour single day, but this proposition is inconsistent with the scriptures. 

Joe Schimmel: "The same coming where Jesus comes to destroy the wicked, and he comes like a thief,  (Jesus put that at the end of the tribulation Matthew 24)..  it is the same day he comes upon the wicked, it is the same day he comes to us.."   

Joe is quite hard to follow, but as far as I understand it, he is saying that the rapture happens on the same day as the wrath is poured out upon the wicked, after the great tribulation. (Matthew 24:30-31). The problem with this view is that Matthew 24 does not state that the wrath is initiated quite yet. After the great tribulation is cut short, the cosmic disturbances and the rapture precede the day of the Lord (the wrath of God). The wrath becomes imminent after the seventh seal is broken, before the trumpet judgements are initiated. (Revelation 8:1-2). 

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31).

Further evidence that the rapture takes place before the day of the Lord is found in Revelation 7:9-17.  "the great multitude from every nation " appear in heaven in resurrection bodies before the seventh seal is broken. “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. (Revelation 7:14 cf. Matthew 24:29, 31).

Joe goes on to quote:
..and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8).

Paul refers to the Thessalonian church and to himself in the present tense, who are afflicted (θλιβομενοις verb - present passive participle). Clearly, departed saints are not "afflicted" after they go to be with the Lord, and yet there is a real sense that the martyrs in particular are waiting for justice:

They (the departed martyrs) cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

In that sense, the martyrs will get "relief " when the Lord executes his vengeance.

In any event, it is difficult to explain "the coming of the Lord with his saints", if the rapture takes place at the same time as a supposed literal 24 hour day of the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 3:13). 

Prewrath and post-trib differ chronologically. According to the scriptures, the rapture precedes the day of the Lord, which makes it a prewrath event. Furthermore, the post-trib claim that this "day" is a literal 24 hour period cannot be correct. Note: days (plural) describes the seventh trumpet call: ..but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. (Revelation 10:7). Furthermore, the scriptures demonstrate that the day of the Lord is at least longer than a five month period of time. (Revelation 9:5). Isaiah 34:8; 61:2 and 63:4 may indicate a year long "day of vengeance" (Edom being symbolic of God's final judgement against the nations. [Isaiah 34:4]). 

1. https://biblehub.com/greek/1161.htm

Further Links:

End Times Seminar Session 4 - The Day of the Lord
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Ynrb2qugA&list=PLDS6L4dOrrh2b31rfWbTduK8Dv7LlQNlk&index=5&t=2s
Articles for Posttribulationism to Consider
https://www.alankurschner.com/2017/08/10/articles-for-posttribulationism-to-consider/
Good Fight Ministries Skewed Post-Trib Rapture View
https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/2020/04/good-fight-ministries-skewed-post-trib.html

GOOD FIGHT MINISTRIES - THE POST-TRIB RAPTURE

This post is not written with the intention of exposing Joe Schimmel as a false teacher, but rather to question his understanding regarding the timing of the rapture.

The timing of the rapture has been a hot topic for some years and the controversy continues to rage on. Good Fight's DVD Left Behind or Led Astray successfully refuted the pre-trib error, and yet still many Christians remain divided and confused over the issue.

As much as I concur with Good Fight Ministries teaching in many respects, there are some questions about the post-tribulation rapture that I am unable to resolve.


In Good Fight Ministries recent podcast above, Joe Schimmel states that believers will be resurrected on "the last day", i.e. the literal last day of the current age. (20 minute mark) I believe that this is erroneous. The phrase "the last day" (τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ) occurs seven times in the New Testament and is peculiar to the Gospel of John.
(John 6:39,40,44,54;11:24;12:48).

A literal interpretation of the scriptures should always be taken unless the context indicates otherwise. In this instance the Apostle John does not expand on the phrase "the last day", and I have not found a commentary that really addresses the subject. Eschatologically "the last day" finds it equivalence in "the day of wrath" aka "that day", "the day of the Lord" etc. as found in a number of passages. (e.g. Joel 2:3; Acts 2:17-21; Isaiah 2:12; Amos 5:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:2). More specifically the book of Revelation identifies the exact time when this "day" begins.. for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Revelation 6:17). The day of wrath commences when the seventh seal is opened, following the cessation of the great tribulation and the cosmic disturbances of the sixth seal. (Revelation 6:12-17). This "day" cannot be a literal twenty four hour period for obvious reasons. (Revelation 9:5,10; Revelation 10:7). ..but that in the days (plural) of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. (Revelation 10:7). 

In Revelation 7, the rapture appears to have taken place before the wrath of God is poured out i.e. before the trumpet judgements begin in Revelation 8.

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:9-14)

White robes are indicative of the marriage supper:

Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,

“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our God
the Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready;
it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure”—

for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” (Revelation 19:6-9).

Although prewrath and post-trib do have elements in common, there are weaknesses in the post-trib view that are irreconcilable with the scriptures. These weaknesses give ammunition to those who attempt to justify the deceptive pre-trib view. At the same time, the obvious deficiencies of the post-trib view do nothing to convince those who would otherwise accept a prewrath rapture.

Alan Kurschner (Eschatos Ministries) has summarised some of the inconsistencies found in the post-trib position as follows:

The resurrection takes place in Revelation 20
The second coming begins in Revelation 19
The second coming begins when Jesus physically comes to earth
The seals, trumpets, bowls occur concurrently
The rapture happens at the seventh trumpet
Paul’s “last trump” refers to the seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation
The great tribulation is 3 1/2 years long
The day of the Lord is a literal 24-hour day

After the rapture, God’s people immediately descend to earth {1}

It would be helpful to get some response from GFM on these questions?

1. https://www.alankurschner.com/2015/10/10/replies-to-the-post-tribulational-rapture-view/