CultureWatch
Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day…On Leaving Church
There are many Christians who have stopped going to church. They have not given up on God, have not renounced their faith, have not denied Christ, and have not become pagans. They simply are no longer going to church. That this is happening is not a matter of doubt, but why this is happening is in fact a difficult question to answer.One recent article spoke about this trend. Entitled “The Rise of the ‘Done With Church’ Population,” it looks at this scene – primarily in America – but does not offer us any clear indications as to why this is becoming such a problem. The article begins:
John is every pastor’s dream member. He’s a life-long believer, well-studied in the Bible, gives generously and leads others passionately. But last year he dropped out of church. He didn’t switch to the other church down the road. He dropped out completely. His departure wasn’t the result of an ugly encounter with a staff person or another member. It wasn’t triggered by any single event.
John had come to a long-considered, thoughtful decision. He said, “I’m just done. I’m done with church.”
John is one in a growing multitude of ex-members. They’re sometimes called the de-churched. They have not abandoned their faith. They have not joined the also-growing legion of those with no religious affiliation—often called the Nones. Rather, John has joined the Dones.
At Group’s recent Future of the Church conference, sociologist Josh Packard shared some of his groundbreaking research on the Dones. He explained these de-churched were among the most dedicated and active people in their congregations. To an increasing degree, the church is losing its best.
For the church, this phenomenon sets up a growing danger. The very people on whom a church relies for lay leadership, service and financial support are going away. And the problem is compounded by the fact that younger people in the next generation, the Millennials, are not lining up to refill the emptying pews.
Why are the Dones done? Packard describes several factors in his upcoming book Church Refugees (Group). Among the reasons: After sitting through countless sermons and Bible studies, they feel they’ve heard it all. One of Packard’s interviewees said, “I’m tired of being lectured to. I’m just done with having some guy tell me what to do.”
The Dones are fatigued with the Sunday routine of plop, pray and pay. They want to play. They want to participate. But they feel spurned at every turn.
Will the Dones return? Not likely, according to the research. They’re done. Packard says it would be more fruitful if churches would focus on not losing these people in the first place. Preventing an exodus is far easier than attempting to convince refugees to return.
Hmmm,
interesting. There would be many reasons why people stop going to
church. We all might have our suggestions as to why this is occurring. I
have my own ideas. Let me list a few such possibilities here:-Many believers are growing tired of the celebrity culture in our churches.
-Many believers are fed up with the incessant entertainment and worldly amusements found in the churches.
-Many believers are not being fed from the Word of God.
-Many believers are put off by the attempt to cater solely to youth, while ignoring their needs.
-Many believers are tired of just being bench warmers, with no role to play.
-Many believers are weary of the constant need to be “relevant” at the expense of biblical orthodoxy.
-Many believers are looking for the real deal. They want an encounter with almighty God, not just a razzmatazz stage production.
-Many believers are desiring genuine Holy Ghost revival, not just pep talks, self-help seminars, and a me-centred gospel.
-Many believers are starving for the reality of First Century Christianity.
Many more reasons could be mentioned. And this is just my take on things. Having spoken at so many churches and home groups and small fellowships over the years, I can get a bit of an understanding of some of these trends. And many of these believers who have left the church have not forsaken Christian fellowship though.
Mindful of texts like Hebrews 10:25 of “not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together,” they still meet with others. But often it is just a very small home group. Often it is just a small band of believers who meet in a small community centre.
They are still eager for God, but have been turned off by so much of the church scene today. Many are repulsed by the celebrity and entertainment culture that runs rampant in so many churches today. They just want to worship Jesus and encourage one another without all the worldly rigmarole.
I have spoken in many of these small fellowship groups. Some of their services can easily last 3, 4, 5 or more hours. They can’t get enough of genuine Christianity and heartfelt worship. But they have gotten enough of churchianity. They are fed up with a church that increasingly resembles the world more than it does the New Testament.
While this move away from the churches may be a way these believers find a new outlet for Christian fellowship, it is obviously tough on pastors and church leaders. One thing they may have to do is slow down, think, pray and ask some hard questions.
But the problem is, so often our leaders are so busy doing church, that they do not have this needed time to reassess, rethink, and re-evaluate. I once wrote a piece in which I made the serious suggestion that some churches might be best placed to actually shut down for a brief spell as the members, and especially the leaders, spend some quality time on their faces before God.
I said in part:
My recommendation is this: it may well be the best thing in many cases to simply shut our church doors and post a big sign on each entry with words something like this:billmuehlenberg.com/2011/11/26/is-it-time-to-close-our-churches/
“Dear friends, sorry but our church is now closed for repairs. It will be closed for perhaps a few days, perhaps a few weeks, and maybe even longer, until a full and thorough renovation has taken place. These doors will remain shut for as long as it takes. We will notify you when the doors will reopen. In fact, there will be no need to notify you, because it will be apparent to everyone when the renewal work is completed. Thank you for your patience.”
Does that sound like a pretty radical proposal? Of course it does. But it may take something radical like this to deal with a church which seems to be losing its way, and is in many ways haemorrhaging to death. When things get that bad, radical surgery is indeed required.
I do not envy being a pastor or a church leader. They have a very tough job, and their work is often thankless, painful and exhausting. We certainly must pray for our leaders. They certainly need it. And they need regular encouragement as well.
But the church is going through tough times now. I certainly do not have all the answers for this. But we must be willing to at least pause and reflect, pray and seek God, as to how we might turn things around. We must at least begin there.
Let me finish with a few great quotes from a few great saints. Their words of warning and advice make for more helpful starting points:
“If the Holy Spirit was withdrawn from the church today, 95 percent of what we do would go on and no one would know the difference. If the Holy Spirit had been withdrawn from the New Testament church, 95 percent of what they did would stop, and everybody would know the difference.” A.W. Tozer
“Oh for radically Bible-saturated, God-centered, Christ-exalting, self-sacrificing, mission-mobilizing, soul-saving, culture-confronting pastors!” John Piper
“When the church is absolutely different from the world, she invariably attracts it. It is then that the world is made to listen to her message, though it may hate it at first.” Martyn Lloyd-Jones
“The church has lost her testimony. She has no longer anything to say to the world. Her once robust shout of assurance has faded away to an apologetic whisper. She who one time went out to declare now goes out to inquire. Her dogmatic declaration has become a respectful suggestion, a word of religious advice, given with the understanding that it is after all only an opinion and not meant to sound bigoted.” A.W. Tozer
“The Church is looking for better methods; God is looking for better men. The Holy Ghost does not flow through methods, but through men. He does not come on machinery, but on men. He does not anoint plans, but men…Men of prayer.” E. M. Bounds
www.churchleaders.com/outreach-missions/outreach-missions-articles/177144-thom-schultz-rise-of-the-done-with-church-population.html
COMMENTS:
http://billmuehlenberg.com/2014/12/26/on-leaving-church/
Since posting this article many more comments have been left on Bill Muehlenberg's site. Please click on the link above to read them.
Since then, the few churches I’ve been connected with have been totally lacklustre; same old dreary monotones from the pulpit. Nothing of note, nothing inspired.
I like the “plop, pray and pay” phrase….that’s absolutely it. That is how I have felt. I once read about chapels in Wales that, at the turn of the last century, had revivals where people claimed they saw fire above the buildings. Now THAT’s exciting! THAT’s what we want!
I am so glad you have written about this topic. I have been contemplating the last few weeks asking you to write about this phenomena as I meet more and more passionate Christians who have stopped attending the church.
As you say, these are righteous people who hunger for God and know God more than many others I know who attend church and are doing the whole program thing. They disciple, meet together, tithe, learn biblical Hebrew, listen to online sermons, have huge theological libraries and love to talk about the Lord for hours. It seems it is all just in a different model. It remind me of the difference between homeschooling and schools. The latter has an external, formal institution and homeschooling doesn’t, yet homeschooling statistically is more effective. In my observation, they are highly effective witnesses too, more so than most Christians I know in the church.
This topic is certainly something I have been praying about as I become more and more disenchanted with current church heresies and programs. I think you hit it spot on with your suggestions.
One such couple who left the church 10 years or so ago, gave me this book to read by a British minister who left the church. In the book he says why and speaks of his journey. He says God called him to use a different model. I am curious if you have read it.
www.lulu.com/shop/stan-firth/the-remarkable-replacement-army/paperback/product-13383343.html
He has a second book called Custom and Command which separates the difference between what are customs in the church and what is actually a command from Jesus in Scripture regarding how the God’s people operate as a church. I haven’t read this one but have had it explained to me.
We now have a regular preacher who’s been here almost two years, patiently laying the ground work for a renewal process, and has been appointed for a 3-year term to continue the good work.
nextreformation.com/wp-admin/resources/custom.pdf
I also am a ‘done with’, but reluctantly having over many years sought to plead with a few churches and pastors to
return to the simplicity of the New Testament church order.
People leave for their churches for the reasons you give, and in these contexts we can suggest ‘wisdom is indeed justified of her children’.
I have read many writers who have also sought to ask why this disillusionment is so pervasive in churches in the west.
Maybe simplistic to suggest one other reason, namely that institutionalism is a real problem, where the “worship service, or “the pastor” is dominant in church life, and the New Testament largely ignored for any practical purposes.
For those who seek more light on this sad phenomena and suggested remedy I cannot recommend too strongly
Frank Viola’s book “Re-imagining Church”, and Dr. Jon Zen’s “The Pastor Has No Clothes”. Both very disturbing,
but each charts the way ahead for those who sorrowfully remain aloof from such churches.
In summary, it is the old enemy of the true spiritual manifestation of the church which is so often responsible for the disillusionment – in one word – tradition.
Time to re-evaluate the NT teaching in 1 Cor 12-14, and Ephesians 2. Its not rocket science as they say.
The “clergy” who fail to understand this do so because their livelihood is dependent upon them believing that their position is called by God. These men and women first had to ignore scripture on ways of the early church to believe that seminary training and scholasticism is necessary for their vocation. Yet, it is the Holy Spirit that gifts and distributes the needs of the local church. The “laity” who fail to understand this have done so because they have a consumer mindset. As if what church best fits their needs. Instead of becoming disciples themselves, these laity set the bar on how far they want to do church.Thus, a pastor that best fits their needs is the one they will honor and protect.
But woe to the pastor who does not perform to their standards. They are expendable and just as easy to fire as they were hired. The pastor they cannot fire is usually the Senior Pastor who has firmly set a foothold in “his” congregation and has already replaced those “lay leaders” who do not worship his vision or ideas with those who do. Thus, it is easier for the laity person to end the membership and find another church.
Those who leave the “church” all together are those who seek the true church, and not a system that has proven time after time that it is not the true church.
I am a lay speaker and have the opportunity to speak and serve in several churches of various sizes. A few of the churches had a large attendance, several are small—less than 12 people. I can honestly say that, if we allow ourselves to be open to the Spirit, we can be blessed in any church of any size and any “flavor.”
It’s not always the church’s fault; sometimes “we” can be the problem. One can see it in the comments people make about churches. “The church isn’t ministering to ME. I don’t get anything out of that church.” And my favorite excuse, “I’m not being ‘fed’.” I, I, I, me, me, me. Folks, it’s not about us and our needs, it’s about worshipping our God and offering our praise to Him for His gift of eternal life through His Son, Jesus Christ. If we leave ourselves and our wants behind, and allow Christ to be central we can be blessed in any church.
You’re article is very clear and objective and of great importance to me personally .I have recently stepped down from Pastoring a local Church and 21 years of passionate ministry following a series of unpaletable events which affected the minds of too many good people in my Church. Sadly many folk left before I did and the Church is slowly recovering under new leadership. I still love God and His Church but I am finding it difficult to re-settle in a local fellowship in part for some of the reasons you have suggested.
I know I will settle somewhere in a good Church but that process may take time ,however I believe God has been showing me that great change is coming to the Church soon and Hope will be restored . I have much more I could say but will keenly follow this link determined not to become one of the “Dones”
Thanks again for sharing Bill
Blessings
Rod Smith
David Skinnner UK
I found a book written by Archpriest, the Very Reverend Father Lawrence Cross AO. What a load of baloney. Can anyone believe Paul insisting he be addressed as the Very Reverend Leading Apostolic Father Paul?
I think when a denomination insists that their leadership is given titles and addressed accordingly, they are not very secure in who they are in Christ as they need to keep having to remind people who their leaders are and how spiritual they are.
And of course I did mention Heb. 10:25 and the need to have some sort of regular fellowship. How exactly that is translated into specifics can be discussed. That is, what form that may take, and how exactly we are to understand the concept of church (the stuff of another 1000 articles at least) is a massive topic of discussion and debate, and that was not something I specifically dealt with in my article.
But what is interesting at the very least is that so many Christians do describe themselves as “dones”. But as I say, whether that is good or bad, and what can be done about it, was not within the confines of my article. It looks like I will have to pen many more pieces to just keep up with all the issues being raised here!
Interesting thoughts you raise. I haven’t read all of the replies here but in my experience, most of the Bible believing Christians I know who don’t attend a church regularly, only have themselves to blame.
These people have such tight views on certain doctrinal/theological matters that they have no room to move and no respect for other views on the matter in question. They search for a church that is true to scripture in every way, but what that really means is they do things their way and how they think it should be.
Some classic examples:
1) The debate on creation and for that matter, literalism of parts of scripture
2) Must we have communion every time we meet together
3) Defining what inherency of scripture really means and how we understand the concept
4) Translations
There’s plenty more but I think we all get the point. The fact that there are multiple denominations all with roughly the same beliefs on who God is, how he works and what he’s done to me is so blatantly obvious that scripture isn’t black and white to the nth degree that some pertain on every matter raised in scripture.
Having said that, inline with your original post, if a church hasn’t got solid Christ centered teaching that views the bible in its entirety then that is certainly grounds to find somewhere else.
Wes
So spoke Captian Nemo (no man) to his unwelcome guests aboard the Nautilus in answer to their question about his solitary sojourns.
And several years ago, as I sat (re) watching this old classic movie from my childhood, with my own children, then 10 and 14, now nearly grown, I understood in a flash that I was done. Done with religious society for reasons that suit me. And done with obeying (or trying to obey) their ‘extra-biblical’ laws. No ill will…no hard feelings…no anger…just: done.
Out of economic necessity I still work part-time for a church, but it is a job. I have found other, more meaningful Christian, charitable activities and I’m thriving there now. As soon as our kids are grown, and I can find a replacement income stream, I”m outta there. . .
Thank you for putting voice to what’s been in my heart for years now.
I’m guessing you’re referring mainly to Evangelical / Pentecostal churches? Many of my friends who no longer go to church were simply burnt out. As you say, they haven’t stopped believing in God, they were simply burnt out by “doing church”. I call it the Hillsong ripple effect. I’ve seen the trend of many churches desperately trying to copy Hillsong church, thinking that was the sure way to being a successful large church. I don’t blame Hillsong, nor do I have anything against Hillsong. The problem was the Pastors / Leaders, of our church & others around us, burnt out their congregation with endless & unrealistic demands, totally neglecting God’s word and becoming more of a circus that was only interested in putting on big expensive shows to impress people. People just became sick of it. As for me, I now attend a small Baptist church, that has a very simple service. If I told you the things our former Pastor did and made us do – to appear “relevant” & by the type of glitzy productions he put on and ran us into the ground to produce them, and the money that was wasted…!! you would be appalled. Tragically we were not the only church who fell into that dreadful trap.
I can see as with everything over History, there comes a time of revival, then growth, then complacency, then decadence. I can see we are now at the stage where decadence is reaching it’s peak, and things are starting to turn around full circle. People are more hungry for a real relationship with the true God. Could we be on the brink of a huge revival? Is the church age moving into a new era as freedom of speech is slowly being outlawed and so the stage is set for those of us who want to freely worship the true God will need to meet in secret like the underground church in China….only time will tell, anyway they’re just a few thoughts….
Keep up the great work Bill, I really enjoy reading your articles. God Bless you!!
After reading the article and its comments, with much grief I have to say, that much of what is said may be true.
But we must not forget that we are the Church, the body of Christ and if the Church has failed then we have failed.
I don’t think that stop going to church is the solution for the problems in our congregations. I’m sure that we all know that there is not a perfect Church, but one thing we know for sure is that the PERFECT is in us and also in the Church, trying to work in us His perfect will.
As a pastor I know the feeling of most of you, but the only way out is to pray asking God for forgiveness and to send revivals in our churches. My advice for the Christian people is to stay in the house of God until He manifest Himself with Power. Remember that “The prayer of a righteous man availed much” God Bless the Church.
I’m a ‘done’ too.
So grateful and blessed to be able to come on to this site and others, and find words of correction, rebuke, encouragement and most importantly, truth.
Definitely missing from most churches.
God Bless you Bill – keep up the good work.
1. If the “done” crowd is spiritually mature enough to properly assess the state of the church and identify it’s many faults & failures why are they not mature enough to effectively activate change?
2. If they must leave why not come together to form a church done “the right way” to set an example & be a light rather than retreat to seclusion?
I understand some have embraced the home church model and that’s great! I’m questioning those who are done completely.
We are now members of a church that has a family feel and is congregationally led rather than a single head pastor with a corporate feel to it.
I’m not very knowledgeable about church trends etc so my opinion in this area is limited to my experience.
I worry about head pastors who have little accountability and who have bullying tendencies. There seems to be such an acceptance of this type of leadership with no recourse.
I say this only to point out that many dozen key leaders left and left the church completely, which is heartbreaking.
People need relationship not corporate style leaders who are so program/result focused that they cause burn out in their people in the process.
I think this is why people leave the church.
A lot of these long term, strong God loving leaders are now preferring house churches where the church life style is vastly different from the one we left.
There’s so much to consider in this discussion and I usually avoid this sort of thing but I’m concerned.
There are right and wrong reasons for leaving a church.
Discernment and obedience to God’s leading is essential.
Let the peace of God be our umpire in these decisions and when it is the right decision to leave or stay, peace and joy will follow as well as renewed purpose and power.
Thank God born again believers are part of His Church wherever it is.
i say that because I taught English to high school students.
The intimacy of communion that takes us to a heart felt, spirit inspired, connection with God in awesome worship has been pushed aside by many churches for the sake of what? Modernism and seeker friendly preaching.
This is what I long for and was what was happening in the first century: ‘What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up’ (1 Cor 14:26 NIV). The early church was a participatory house church for every member participation. Today that best happens in some small groups but not in the rock ‘n roll or traditional church services.
I consider that the Dones are done with one-way communication and ho-hum tradition and call on the church to get back to every-gifted-member participation according to 1 Cor 14:26.
Another point of relevance, when small groups in churches are dominated overly controlled by church leadership, then this can become a killer to the spiritual life of an individual. Each of us needs to be jealous for the calling placed in our hearts by the Lord. There is a tension here with fitting into the ministry of a local body, because we are also to be part of a body.
Regarding this, early in my Christian walk I was fortunate to come across the teaching of Hans Burke, who taught of the role of levels of personal relationships, like concentric circles coming into the centre, in the life of our Lord and Saviour. Starting with: the multitudes in Israel; 120 disciples at Pentecost; 70 disciples who were sent out in pairs; of course the 12 disciples / apostles; but then within this it is clear that Peter, James and John experienced a much closer level of intimacy; and Hans Burke finished with the observation that it is clear from the gospel writers that John, above the other two in this last group experienced a greater level of intimacy with our Saviour. Hans Burke’s conclusion was a question: “If intimate relationships were so important in the life and ministry of our Lord and Saviour, how can they be any less important to each of us?”
On another point regarding this topic, the following 6 part set of audio sermons preached in 1959 by Martyn-Lloyd Jones remains a valuable sources of encouragement regarding revival. www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=34
Chris McNicol
The verses pulled out of context have entire doctrines built on them and they leave me dry, sick on my stomach and sad.
I have tried a couple of times to go back but as long as the pagan ways are the glorified ways I won’t step foot in the place.
When men are at the end of the line God is there.
Best ministry I’ve been involved with in 30 years.
www.facebook.com/PeterLyndonJames
But surely what matters is that I worship God. My best times are so often alone, standing, kneeling, crying, arms raised, handing Him my heart in prayer and song and tears.
Roger, I think fellowship has 4 ‘dimensions’. I have to matter to someone, they have to care about me, the ‘us’ has to matters to others, and the extent to which I am loved directly affects how much I am enabled to love others. This last part which is of course 1 John 4:19 is not learned from a text or a sermon, but from walking the hard road with Jesus. So in a sense any criticism of church is a criticism of me.
The heartache of this situation is not how it leaves me – because I do still love my own worship times, but where it leaves the prodigals. At the top of my prayer is that somehow despite the sugar and meatless stuff in churches, Jesus will find a way to come into their lives.
Jesus had the same problem with ‘church’ in His day. But He goes around, taking burdens off people, shutting down Mammon and the flesh, and opening the door for the spirit and life of God to change lives. So I end up saying stuff the church, I have to walk like Jesus walked and lift burdens and open doors for God. Not easy!
.
Several years ago, we moved from an area in Australia where the church seemed so vibrant to another city where we struggled to find a fellowship, especially one where both my wife and I could be happy. For about 5 years, we attended a church where the preaching was reasonable, but the congregation was just so unbelievably ‘cliquey’ that it seemed impossible to be accepted. I had the opportunity to preach one week and, in part, gently chided the congregation for not being more open and welcoming. After the service, a couple of people came up to me and simply said they wanted to be anonymous and simply vanish after the service without getting to know others!
By chance, we met several couples who felt the same way as we did – all of whom were on the point of leaving – and formed our own ‘after-coffee coffee-group’, i.e. where we would move on after coffee at church to have our own mini-fellowship group – which happily accepted any ‘newbies’ – and this worked very well for another couple of years.
However, we eventually tired of that and I became a ‘Done with’ and contented myself with my teaching (my wife persevered with other churches) until I even tired of that. Sadly, many of the people coming through ministry training had absorbed the liberal/humanistic view of the Bible and whose closed minds didn’t want to hear about the theological implications of moving from the inerrancy of Scripture (or, for that matter, the creation debate – contra Wes above). It’s interesting to note that it’s the Bible-believing Christians whom Wes, and others, portray as having ‘tight views’!
Galen, above, also refers to what he calls his “favourite excuse: I’m not being ‘fed’” and 21 months ago, I might have agreed with him accepting I fell into that category. However, after moving to the UK following our retirement with the basic intent of travelling, I now take issue with that view also having now discovered something completely unexpected – a church in England where I am being fed through excellent, Bible-based, expository preaching!
The feeling of being fed once again after becoming so spiritually hungry has been the most unbelievable experience. I now actually want to go to church again. When we do miss a Sunday for whatever reason, I listen to the sermon (sometimes more than once) on-line. Furthermore, the experience of being back in fellowship is amazing.
I was recently hospitalised for a month and was blown away by the number of visitors I received from church. When discharged, I was still unable to get to church for another 3 weeks, but had more visits at home. Then, when I finally managed to get back to church, involuntary tears just poured down my face – it was simply so great to be back!
What I find really sad about many of the responses above is that they indicate that what we have been so blessed to find here is such a rarity.
– Arrogance: Living immorally and blasphemously claiming to be within the Lord’s Will
– Favoritism: Showing grace to those who can materially benefit you while being harsh to others who can’t
– Idolatry: worshipping the Pastor, the Worship Music, the Outlined message instead of the Living God
It’s not always the fault of the guy in the pulpit that this happens. We in the congregation are often the cause of these problems. The only blame that “might” be justifiable to ascribe to pastors is that they don’t stand up boldly against it.
The Reformation, the Establishment of Bills of Rights–FREEDOM–written into LAW, the present Islamic threat, the godless takeover of Western Governments by antiChrists REQUIRE united ACTION unto BLOOD if necessary, and it usually IS NECESSARY!
Ignoring these ISSUES is to ABDICATE our DUTY as CHRISTIAN CITIZENS–which will lead to being physically CONQUERED by the forces of the DEVIL working through antiChristian secular, occult, governmental, military powers.
There were countless times in history the Church had to STAND with Bible and SWORD.
I would not be at all surprised if the real church were beginning its exodus to the “underground” as more and more persecution arrives on our shores and as increasing numbers of “Christians” move away from and shun the core values of our faith.
“The fervent, effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” James 5:16
So they quit. They aren’t supported.
And at church they’ll miss future messages on the great medical marvels of western society, how one day there may be tribulation or persecution here (but not yet).
Meanwhile the suffering family remains home and loses their social contacts because they won’t “stay with the program”.
The baby boomers in their church will not see what transpired, not having a paradigm to deal with these things in their generation.
Or a family shows up with a nursing baby and they are kept from entering the worship time because the sleeping baby will silence the Holy Spirit (and the cameras rolling, and the college age hipster environment), meanwhile the mature elders of the church are leaving because the sound level is so loud its unbearable. The sound cannot be turned down, even a bit for those who helped build the church because they are stopping the work of the Holy Spirit.
One can get better service from a secular institution (not that I’m insinuating that church is a service).
We grew up on teachings about the Body of Christ, the compassion and encouragement of the Saints, and now that numbers are down, its about keeping those that know their scriptures and the realities of this corrupt society from causing too many waves.
Teachings are modernistic and simplistic and do not feed the soul.
Yes, there is much to be done by stopping. Praying together and asking the Lord what we need to do.
And He may just say, leave your 501c3 behind and become a fellowship of believers again.
Doners may be on the cutting edge.
– Wanting to get in to the reality of Hebrew Roots
– Realize today’s “Church” is not run Biblically
– Realize there are alot of Pagan traditions in the Church today that have been born from the heretical Roman Emperors who chose to change G-d’s orders/Commandments with Traditions of Men
– Fed up with many doctrines that keep people blind e.g “It is a Sin not to go to Church every Sunday” (Not based on Scripture at all!)
– Realize G-d is now sifting the Chaff from the Wheat and we are told in preparing for Yeshua’s return to “Come Out From Among Them! (Apostasy Church’s)”
– Getting a Sugar Coated message which doesn’t grow a persons walk or relationship with G-d or his brothers and sisters.
Plant a church, nurture it up to where it is sef-sustaining, then go out and plant another, and another and another, THEN, go out and plant another. That will take care of the sense of not belonging.
Hell fire and damnation is what brings people to the realization they are lost and need to be saved, and that’s what it’s all about.
Some folks like big churches ’cause they can get lost in them and have no part in helping build or sustain it, and then go home and pat themselves on the back saying, “We went to church today.”
My hope is once my husband dies I can find a small church that is not caught up in entertaining, prosperity teaching, youth over the rest of the church, etc. but on relationship with God.
You see, we had members who had joined the church in the early 1960’s in positions of control. They controlled everything and nothing could get done in the church if it didn’t pass their approval. I know there were earlier posts where (presumably older) posters didn’t like the changes to music, the sound, etc happening. Why, I ask you, do we think church should be “done” like it was in 1950? Or even 1980? Do we drive cars with features like the ones made in the 50’s? I am not saying what is preached should be anything but Biblically-based, but it does not have to be DELIVERED like it was 20 years ago.
Yes, churches try to attract younger people – who is going to be coming to church and keeping it open so you can have your funeral there? People who are younger now, that’s who! It is not an attempt (at least for us) to drive away older people, but trying to attract newer, unchurched people. If we do not try to attract them, then are we fulfilling Christ’s mission to make disciples of all people? How can we be His disciples if we don’t do as He commanded? I feel that people should try to change and help a church rather than just leave, if they don’t like what’s happening; AND pray for discernment and God’s will. And finally – church is not about YOU, it’s about worshiping GOD.
One, you can’t leave church because you are the church so you can’t leave yourself.
Two. Who’s to say that the religious organisation that you attend is the church?
Three. You only need two or three to be the church.
Four. The New Testament Church meeting comprised of probably no more than 30 people.
Five. The NTC met in homes not buildings.
Six. Their meeting comprised of an ‘agape’ meal amongst other things.
Seven. No one ‘led’ the meeting. That was the Holy Spirit’s job.
Eight. if you want to develop a persons ministry you need the priesthood of all believers.
NIne. if people sit in the pew they won’t stand on the promises.
Ten. We are commanded to make disciples, not spectators.
Finally Karen, I found out who Christ truly was after I left the so called ‘church’ so your comment about being out of fellowship with Christ couldn’t be farther from the truth.
Do you mean a corporation under the authority of the US Federal government? Licensed to operate under Roberts Rules of Order and as a Charitable Organization? I don’t consider those Biblical “churches”…
Do you mean those institutions that are Romans 13 institutions where the pastor is part of, and paid to be informants in clergy response teams?
Does anyone find it interesting in this age of deceit and perfectly timed with Rev 3 and Christs letters to the Laodicean church age that Christ must “stand at the door and knock” to get His people to come out of the churches of those days?
I shall remain far, far away from these institutions, thank you and God Bless!
But let me say to the “dones”: get undone! I think it’s important for all Christians to be connected to a church. Actually, very important. Having returned from the mission field again recently we have been attending a church which has a female pastor on the staff who preaches from time to time. Now, I’m not buying into that argument except to say that she sounds like a feminist and more recently like a pacifist. I need to talk to her about that but I haven’t quite summoned up the courage yet.
But my point is that in all the “churches” of just about every complexion I have attended in numerous countries and cultures in the past 50 or so years there are things I haven’t ‘liked’. But I encourage people to ‘hang in’. In the same way as I believe Christians should be ‘involved’ in politics I believe its even more important for us to be involved in a church instead of just carping from the sidelines.
I don’t believe that The Lord is really very interested in what expression of the Body of Christ we are in (conventional or otherwise). His call for us is to return to our “first love”. Our response should be to remove all obstsacles, either religious or worldly so that His light can shine through us as the Bride being prepared for the Bridegroom.
Over the years I have seen several people leave their church for a variety of reasons to avoid “spiritual contamination” and be free of religious hindrances. So often it all starts well but, unfortunately, over time, spiritual superiority, judgemental ism and arrogance begin to manifest. Those who don’t follow their lead are regarded as compromises or worse just as the ones who stay in the original church regard the ones who leave as misguided or deceived. What tribal creatures we can be!
Your church or fellowship is not nearly as important as the condition of your heart toward Jesus. Whether you choose to stay or go, returning to your first love is not a matter of geography. It is my hope that we all continue to grow in humility, love and forgiveness as we work out these issues with our brothers and sisters in Christ.
As one of the “Dones”, I appreciate the article. I would like to add one point and that concerns the common usage of the word “leader” or “leadership” to describe the people who are in fact only church managers.
Since my youngest days in the “church”, it has always interested me to see that men who have responsible positions at work, have families that are in order, able to to borrow large amounts of money and give substantially to the offerings, are treated like little boys on Sunday as they sit there and are told.