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Saturday, 10 October 2015

thomas ice and paul wilkinson: the sordid pre-tribulation rapture deception!

but evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. (2 Timothy 3:13)

Thomas Ice is is Executive Director of The Pre-Trib Research Center (PTRC). He founded the PTRC in 1994 with Tim LaHaye to research, teach, and defend the pre-tribulation rapture and related Bible prophecy doctrines. http://pre-trib.org/about/dr-ice

"Dr" Thomas Ice received his PhD from Tyndale Theological Seminary which is an unaccredited private Christian seminary with its campus in Fort Worth, Texas.

"WorldNetDaily reported on March 7 that a Texas district court has ordered the Tyndale Theological Seminary to pay fines totalling $170,000 for issuing 34 theological degrees without receiving approval from the state education agency."
http://www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/2001_macpherson_deceiving.html

The key verse the PTRC use to promote the pre-tribulation rapture deception: Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus (Titus 2:13). The PTRC works on the presupposition that "the blessed hope" IS the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. There are some very serious problems with this presupposition. The relevant word in Titus 2:13 is "appearing" epipháneia, literally an epiphany, a fitting manifestation orconspicuous appearing. This emphasises the impact that Christ's visible appearance will have on the entire world when every eye shall see him, both the saved and the unsaved (Revelation 1:7).  In the New Testament  epipháneia occurs six times and it is always used of Christ's coming (once of His first coming, 2 Timothy 1:10). The context is the appearing of the glory further confirms this understanding since the glory will not be manifest until Christ's second coming to the earth. The blessed hope is synonymous with the parousia i.e. the second coming of Christ (Matthew 24:3, 27, 37; 1 Corinthians 15:23).

"PTRC wants to impact Pastors and individual Christians with the central role and importance that Bible prophecy, especially the any-moment possibility of the rapture, should play in the life of the church. Dr. LaHaye and PTRC stresses three practical implications that flow from the rapture teaching. The first implication of pretribulationism is that it leads to godly living in an unholy age. Next, this New Testament teaching promotes a strong emphasis upon evangelism of the lost. Finally, when believers come to understand this eternal perspective, it leads to a zeal for worldwide missions."  http://www.pre-trib.org/about
 
Exhortations to godly living in the New Testament do not hinge on a pre-tribulation rapture:

Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation (apokalupsis) of Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:13) The meaning of apokalupsis is to lay bare. It is the the manifestation of Jesus Christ, not in a pre-tribulation rapture, but his final advent. 

Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, (2 Peter 3:11) This verse links godly living to the day of the Lord, not a pre-tribulation rapture.

The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armour of light  (Romans 13:12) the approaching parousia (see also Hebrews 10:37; 1 Corinthians 3:13). 

.....for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (Ephesians 5:8; 1 Thessalonians 5:5; Luke 16:8; John 12:36). Christians are exhorted to walk as children of light because they belong to Christ.

See also 1 Peter 3:8-18, 2 Corinthians 7:1; 2 Peter 1:1-9 etc.

Similarly, evangelism and missions are centered on the salvation message i.e. the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the New Testament, not on a pre-tribulation rapture.

The doctrine of imminency, i.e. the teaching that the rapture could take place at any moment, is not found in the Bible, rather it is an induction.

Thomas Ice interprets the "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as the rapture, due to his interpretation of apostasia "the departure". 1 Timothy 4:1 demonstrates very clearly that apostasia is not the rapture - apostasy  is defection, desertion, rebellion departure from a previous standing.  There are several instances where the meaning of apostasia is clear: Luke 2:37, 4:13, 8:13, 13:27; Acts 5:37, 12:10, 15:38, 19:9, 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. You cannot possibly get the rapture from apostasia!

Thomas Ice would have us believe that "the 24 elders" in Revelation 4:4 are the complete raptured church in heaven prior to the tribulation. This is yet another induction. Firstly, Revelation 4:4 is a description of the throne-room of God, there is nothing to indicate that it is a future event. Revelation 15:1-6 is a future scene with those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands. This seems clear enough, but additionally, Revelation 5:8 has the 24 elders each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.  This verse seems to indicate that the "elders" represent the saints, not that the saints are actually present. Furthermore the redeemed of Revelation 6:9 are not with the 24 elders around the throne of God, they are under the altar. The word "elder" is not used of angels in the scriptures, but neither are "elders" referred to as the complete church - elders are simply "elders", we are given no further information about their identity.

Thomas Ice et al are very adept at mis-translating the scriptures in order to advance their pre-tribulation deception. Theologians call it "revisionism" - I call it cheating! A terrible judgement awaits anyone who dares to alter God's word (Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32; Proverbs 30:5-6; Revelation 22:18-19). 

THE SORDID HISTORY: JOHN NELSON DARBY OR EDWARD IRVING?

Prior to the 1830s no one had heard of the pre-tribulation rapture theory. The church looked to the second coming, the parousia, as their hope for just over 1800 years, until Darby that is. Even today, pretribulationism is a doctrine which is held exclusively by the western church, the rest of the Christian world holds to the apostolic position. It was not until Darby departed from the apostles teaching and began to inflict pretribulationalism onto congregations, both in the UK and the US, that the deception began to take hold. In his own words, Darby's wish was that it would spread through the church like "leaven". The deception was further popularized in the US in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible. Scofield's unholy life is a subject in itself; suffice to say that he was a dishonest man known for scandal, lies, fraud, adultery, forgery, drunkenness and disgrace.
http://fortheloveofhistruth.com/2013/08/28/scofield-bible-part-2-re-defining-the-darkness-of-fraud-conspiracy-and-heresy/
http://proliberty.com/observer/20090507.htm

The PTRC credits John Nelson Darby, and Darby alone, with the pre-tribulation rapture theory.

".....I believe it can be established that Darby first came to believe in both dispensational truth and pretribulationism by December 1826 or January 1827, before these other alleged sources even surfaced."
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/when-did-j-n-darby-discover-the-rapture

The above PTRC statement is very misleading. It appears that Darby did not clearly teach the pre-tribulation rapture until after the split of the Brethren movement in 1839, twelve years after the date claimed by the PTRC. In fact, evidence suggests that Edward Irving and his followers came up with all of the crucial aspects of dispensationalism well before Darby. Irving published extensive pre-tribulation teachings in his journal "The Morning Watch" from 1829 to 1833. Furthermore, it seems inconceivable that Benjamin Wills Newton would have invited Darby to join the Plymouth Assembly had Darby held pretribulational views in 1831. It was not until 1834 that cracks began to develop in the relationship between Darby and Newton, when Darby began to shift positions and became increasingly convinced in a pre-tribulation rapture. Ordinarily these details would not be critical, but there are good reasons why the PTRC want to credit Darby as the originator of pre-tribulation theory and distance themselves from Irving. Irving was declared a heretic by the Church of Scotland in 1833 for teaching that Christ's human nature was sinful. Furthermore, Irving was a Universalist, an occultist and a false prophet (he predicted that Christ would return in 1864). Clearly Irving's pedigree is not conducive to the PTRC aims of promoting pre-tribulation rapture as a credible proposition. It has been suggested, and not without some foundation, that there has been a sordid cover up in order to credit Darby with pretribulationalism. This plot is promoted primarily through the prevarications of Thomas Ice, and more recently the PTRC's new thug, Paul Wilkinson, who is also a member of the PWMI in the UK. Wilkinson has recently conducted a vicious attack against Joe Schimmel, Jacob Prasch and Joel Richardson, through his defective critique of the DVD Left Behind of Led Astray (LBOLA) by Good Fight Ministries. His subsequent rebuttal to the round table discussion is very weak if not pathetic; he refuses to even answer certain questions saying: "They are not worthy of comment".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiNjDYsHfh4&feature=youtu.be
http://livestream.com/bereancallconference/israel2
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/left-behind-or-led-astrayexposed-long-version

As General Director of The Prophetic Witness Movement International (PWMI), Colin LeNoury's knowledge of the subject is embarrassingly sparse. One would think that the General Director of the PWMI would be fully conversant with the history of the pre-tribulation rapture theory. In the DVD LBOLA, Le Noury says that Darby's pre-tribulation ideas ran concurrently with Edward Irving. This contradicts Ice and Wilkinson who say that Darby pre-dated Irving. LeNoury could not answer the question whether there was evidence that Darby's ideas about a pre-tribulation rapture had crystallized prior to 1830: "I am not sure. It is not an area I have researched deeply enough to say whether we have or not."   Le Noury has also stated in the same DVD that there is no verse in the scriptures which proves a pre-tribulation rapture.  Enough said I think!                

THE RECENT SORDID HISTORY: HAL LINDSEY AND TIM LAHAYE

During the 1970's the pre-tribulation rapture theory came back into focus and was popularised by Hal Lindsey's book The Late Great Planet Earth (1970), which has reportedly sold over 60 million copies. The film A Thief in the Night, which followed in 1972, was heavily influenced by The Late Great Planet Earth. In 1995, the pre-tribulation rapture theory was further popularised by Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series of best selling novels which sold tens of millions of copies and later developed into a multi-media franchise. Needless to say, since the 1970s, the pre-trib industry has developed into big business worth millions of pounds.

Very little is known about Hal Lindsey's co-author Carole C. Carlson. This seems very odd for someone who has co-authored several best sellers. It has been suggested by some that Carlson is a Roman Catholic nun writing under a pseudo name in order to hide her true identity. Lindsey and Carlson went on to write several sequels, including Satan is Alive and Well on Planet Earth and The 1980s: Countdown to Armageddon. Carlson is also co-author of Escape the Coming Night with  David Jeremiah. Why do we know so little about Carlson?  Lindsey is also equally tight lipped about his four marriages. Should we take a man seriously as a Bible prophecy expert who has been married four times and who has close associations with the apostate TBN TV station? According to several sources, the 2002 Alumni Directory of the Jesuit Gonzaga University lists two of Lindsey's daughters as attendees. In addition to this, Lindsey is a false prophet (Deuteronomy 18:20; 2 Peter 2:1):

Lindsey prophesied in The Late Great Planet Earth, that the Soviet Union would be the Empire of the Anti-Christ.
He also prophesied that Jesus would return within 40 years of the birth of the nation of Israel (citing Matthew 24 and the budding of the fig tree).
http://hallindsey.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=137240

Despite all of the above, Thomas Ice refers to Hal Lindsey in glowing terms. 

Tim LaHaye: "No single verse specifically states Christ will come before the Tribulation."

Tim LaHaye has strong connections with Sun Myung Moon, founder of the Unification Church (the Moonies). Moon has proclaimed himself "the world’s new Messiah" and "the Lord of the Second Advent." LaHaye was the chair of Moon’s Coalition for Religious Freedom, and is reported to have received at least half a million dollars in funding from Moon’s associate Bo Hi Park. It is extraordinary to say the least that LaHaye and his wife have attended and spoken at Moon-sponsored events without raising any theological objections to Moon's claims.

Tim LaHaye to Sun Myung Moon: "Your suffering will cleanse the sins of America."

In 1981 LaHaye founded The Council for National Policy described by The New York Times as: "A little-known club of a few hundred of the most powerful conservatives in the country."  LaHaye along with others, is said to be a major figure in subverting the messianic faith. Please read the details of this very secretive organization on the links below. Additionally LaHaye's book Power of the Cross uses the unmistakable Freemasonry Knights Templar symbol, the Cross and Crown, on its cover.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_for_National_Policy
http://www.aljacobsladder.com/lord-help-me/gods-fakirs/more-moronic-con-men.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_and_Crown

The above information should be quite enough for any Christian to avoid Tim LaHay and Left Behind like the plague. However so called "prophecy expert"  "Dr" Thomas Ice
actually founded the PTRC with him!

What are we supposed to make of all this? I do not know what Thomas Ice and Paul Wilkinson are in reality, only God knows what they are. What I do question is:
  • Why, without one verse of scripture to corroborate it, do intelligent "Christian" men seek to promote pre-tribulation theory so vehemently? 
  • Why do the PTRC and the PWMI promote flawed ideas of disreputable men like Irving, Darby, Lindsey and LaHaye?  
  • Why did Paul Wilkinson seek to make the pre-tribulation theory a divisive issue at the Berean Call Conference this year?
  • Why did Paul Wilkinson seek to destroy the ministries of reputable biblical experts and teachers Joe Schimmel, Jacob Prasch and Joel Richardson? 
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! (Isaiah 5:20)

We see so called evangelicals Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, TD Jakes etc. openly aligning themselves with Rome and Jesuit Pope Francis, but is there something just as sinister going on among "respectable" evangelical leaders who claim to be "Bereans"? I personally believe that there is.

Joe Schimmel and Jacob Prasch have stated that the timing of the rapture should not be a divisive issue. I agree that there are many genuine Christians who have been sucked into the pre-tribulation rapture deception by their pastors and/or denominations, and I am not saying that I would divide from these dear believers in Jesus Christ. My personal problem at this point in time is that I cannot maintain unity with those who in my view are deliberately perpetrating a deception which threatens to turn Christians away from their salvation. This is no small issue! I regard these men as false witnesses who are facilitating the "apostasia" (2 Thessalonians 2:3; Mark 10:19; Proverbs 12:17; 14:25). They muddy the waters and have sought to re-invent the sordid pre-tribulation rapture history with no scriptural basis to authenticate their position . I personally have no confidence in either Thomas Ice or Paul Wilkinson as true leaders of the church; I regard them as wolves in sheep's clothing (Matthew 7:15; 1 Timothy 3:1-13). I could no more fellowship with these men than I could with Benny Hinn!

I see nothing of the gospel on the PTRC website, all of their time and substantial efforts are focused upon this deception to the exclusion of the gospel itself.

 .....and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. (Acts 20:20)



http://www.seeking4truth.com/john_darby.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Wills_Newton
http://www.scionofzion.com/edward_irving.htmhttp://www.omegashock.com/2013/02/20/jesuit-pretrib-rapture/
http://watch.pair.com/lahaye.html
http://www.rense.com/general20/unholy.htm
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/wp-content/uploads/Exposed-Chuck-Missler-Tim-Lahaye-etc.pdf
http://libertytothecaptives.net/tim_lahaye.html

18 comments:

Anonymous said...

I am glad that you have spent a not inconsiderable time into researching the deception known as Dispensationalism/pre-tribulationism. I always use a capital D as it is in my eyes a cult. It is interesting that those at PTRC would have us believe that the any moment rapture theory encourages a believer to "godly living in an unholy age"! When was there ever a holy age? The Bible knows nothing of it after the fall! Besides, these pre-trib teachers believe the Church is a parenthesis that started at Pentecost and will end with their mythical rapture some seven years before the Lord's Second Coming. Whereas the Bible teaches that God's Church consists of all Old & New Testament believers from Adam to the great white throne. Anyhow, do not such OLD TESTAMENT (nearly 3000 years before pre-trib doctrine came along!) Scriptures such as "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge" encourage a believer to be godly? And besides, does not the Bible tell us that "The LORD gave and the LORD hath taken away" Job 1.21? A true believer will be godly, because he/she is one of God's elect! None can be so presumptuous as to say he/she will be alive when the Lord returns? How many believers in the last 170 or so years have died believing in the any moment rapture deception?
Have you ever done a study on how the pre-trib teachers say the "last trump" is not the last trump? The mind boggles!!!
Keep up the good work and God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

You bring up some very good points Anonymous. I have done a little research into "the last trump" and the difference between the silver trumpets and the shofar.

Joe Schimmel recently likened the pre-trib leaders to Hananiah, the false prophet in Jeremiah 28. I also had a similar thought:

Matthew 16:22-23 "And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, 'Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.' But he turned and said to Peter, 'Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.'"

I do believe that the pre trib LEADERS are a hindrance to the purposes of the Lord and are leading people astray. God bless x

Anonymous said...

Well I have not studied as you dear people, God Bless You for your knowledge, however I was thinking about all this, why would Christ meet half his bride in the air? also what about all the Christians who died horrible deaths throughout the centuries for their faith in Christ? the disciples, and also the Christians of today. I was taught the pre-trib theory, but it is not what I believe now. sorry if this sounds a simplistic but I have not studied theology. may God Bless you for alerting people.

Anonymous said...

E.W.Bullinger on Revelation xi.15. from his APOCALYPSE (1902) p 371.

"This is called the "seventh" Trumpet, and it is the "last" of this special series. But it does not follow there will be none after: or, that a trumpet before it may not also be called the "last" relatively to another subject. In 1 Cor. xv. 51,52, we read of "the last trumpet: for a trumpet shall sound." In 1 Thess iv.16 we read that the Lord "shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel's voice, and with the trump of God." This is the "last" Trumpet as regards the church of God, but not the last absolutely. It will be sounded long before these judgments begin, in order to raise His sleeping saints, and take them up with the living saints, to be with Himself forever. There will be another great trumpet after the great Tribulation, immediately connected with the Lord's Apocalypse. See Matthew xxiv.31. This is subsequent to this "seventh Trumpet," for that Apocalypse is recorded in Rev. xix. So that the seventh Trumpet in Rev xi.15 is not the "last Trump," absolutely, but only relatively; for it is only THE LAST OF THIS SERIES OF SEVEN.(italics in original). Moreover this is neither called "the last": nor is it necessary for us so to call it. The Trump in 1 Cor. xv.51,52, is called the "last" with reference to the church of God. It is the Trump which shall close our connection with the earth; it will end up all longing expectation , and therefore there is a true sense in which it is our last Trump."

He goes on!! Bullinger (best of friends with Sir Robert Anderson) was known as a hyper Dispensationalist, but, nevertheless I don't believe you will find any Dispensationalist will disagree with Bullinger's exegesis. All Dispensationalists have to deny that the seventh trumpet in Rev 11.15 is NOT the same as the trumpet in 1 Thess 4.16 and 1 Cor. 15.52, for their theory to hold water.
How much easier to believe that the church of God is ONE group of saved people from Adam to the great white throne?

Can you see how I smelt a dead rat, reading such hopscotch exegesis as the above?
These men are faithful to their theology rather than what the Bible teaches?

Anonymous said...

Paul Wilkinson et al ought to be prepared to answer questions raised and 'prove' why the men he accuses of being heretics are indeed so. Lindsey and LaHaye ...what can I say ....evil communications corrupt good manners. At the end of the day the origins of a pre-trib belief must be credited to Scrioture and NOT to men of dubious character. I remember hearing claims that other men had restored other truths to the body of Christ I.e. the word of faith, the watchtower, mormonism and adventism to name a few. Divisive language will cause division and the pre-trib camp may be encouraged to divide and separate from those of another belief on the timing of the rapture. This is the behaviour of a cult. An earthly man of dubious character 'restores' a lost truth to the church and then anyone who disagrees is a heretic? Things that make ya go hmmmmmm. God bless.

Anonymous said...

I agree Anon (12 Oct 2015 at 04:08)
A very sensible comment.
The error of Dispensationalism/pre-tribulationalism is that it has spread it's tentacles into nearly every area of Bible teaching. We could say it is cancerous?
I have often thought that if any of us were left alone on a desert island with all necessary provisions to live, and an average intellect with only a Bible to read (could we be left with anything better???) would any of us discover a secret/any moment/call it what you will rapture before the true rapture at the Lord's Second Advent? It has almost become a well worn cliché "there is not one Scripture that teaches a pre-trib rapture!?"

Anyhow, if the disciples asked the question of the Lord's return in Matthew 24-25, as THE FOUNDERS OF THE NT CHURCH, then very clearly the pre-tribulation rapture theory falls apart! It becomes untenable. Therefore the disciples (under the false/Satanic Dispensational scheme must therefore not be identified with the Church (heavenly people), but with the earthly nation of Israel! How utterly incongruous to the plain teaching of Scripture? Was Old Testament Abraham 'earthly' when he "looked for a city which hath foundations whose builder and maker is God" Hebrews 11.10?
Sadly, so very few realise how the error of Dispensational theology has wreaked the great havoc that it has in the professing Church. May God continue to bless this website.

david parkins said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

These attacks will come again and again and again. Attacks I say, not debates or discussions. Attacks. Brother against brother. This is not an opportunity for us to prove we're right, but rather, to prove we're HIS. I'd rather prepare to enter tribulation and be surprised by the rapture, rather than prepare for a pre-trib rapture and be surprised by tribulation. God's will be done.

Treena Gisborn said...

I don't really see this as proving that I am right Anon. This is not a "debate" in my view, it is about exposing serious deception which is lethal to the bride of Christ. God bless

Anonymous said...

I agree entirely with Treena. If I am attacking anything, essentially it is the satanic doctrine of Dispensationalism of which its principal outworking is the pre-trib rapture. Obviously by teaching against this wicked doctrine, naturally it will be seen as attacking those who forcefully promulgate it! Can it ever be otherwise?
It is all well and good to come up with philosophical statements with an appearance of wisdom which make absolutely no sense, such as "I'd rather prepare to enter tribulation and be surprised by the rapture, than prepare for a pre-trib rapture and be surprised by the tribulation." First of all, HOW do you "prepare for a pre-trib rapture"? And besides people for aeons have "been surprised by tribulation" ever since we have been on the planet! There have always been "tribulation"; we are here talking about the GREAT tribulation! The "time of Jacob's trouble" a ONE off event!
We have much greater light than those who went before us and yet people still cling to this false teaching, I call it "satanic" because "Hath God said?" Genesis 3.1. No He hasn't separated Israel from the Church and taught a pre-trib rapture!
You know the strange thing is that people who believe this errant theology will still tell you that Christ could have come back at ANY time this last two millennia! Even BEFORE the apostles died! They hold on to this in spite of the veritable fact that the Saviour TOLD Peter how we was going to die, and as an old man! John 21.18-19. If the Saviour came back hundreds/thousand odd years ago, we wouldn't even have been born!!!! A sobering thought?
There are some Dispensationalists that have taught that Christ's 'offer' of the kingdom was genuine! If this was so, there would have been no Atonement!
Dispensationalism is a ghastly theology which shouldn't be continually modified, but abandoned altogether.

Eileen Thompson said...

When I became a Christian fifty years ago, I was taught the Pre-trib. Rapture .... I knew no different and saw no reason to question it. However, after hearing a presentation by a church member a couple of years ago regarding 'blood moons' and her expectations of the Rapture in Sept that year! etc the warning lights began to flash - especially when she said the 'falling away' (apostasy of the church) in 2Thess 2:3 wasn't the true meaning - it should be 'catching away' or 'taking away' .... I'd never heard that said before!
It changes the whole meaning of the Apostles words. Anyway, v2 equates the day of Christ with the Lord's coming and our gathering unto Him. The sequence of events is here in these verses : the church will apostatise , the Man of sin will be revealed to us - followed eventually by the coming Day of Christ.

I thank the Lord that He used this to open my eyes. I write a Blog on Wordpress myself and did a post on it there. In my naïveté , I expected Christian friends would soon see the same truth, and I try to encourage people to forget all the pre- trib teachings they may have had and go to the scriptures alone, but I fear it may have too strong a hold on them. I think it is a more important subject than we think if we try to relegate it to a lesser 'doctrine'. It is all God's word and should be valued as such. Why I think it is important is because the pre-trib. Rapture teaching splits the Gospel into two parts - you can be saved before the Rapture, but if you weren't 'ready' , well not to worry, there is a second chance for you , this time by your works - So it's best to go first and miss all that tribulation.

May the Lord bless and keep you

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Eileen. Pre-trib is indeed a very strong deception. Anything that compromises God's word is important and I do not see this as a lesser doctrine either, though there are those who would disagree with me. God bless x

colin said...

Eileen,
Yes, I had that shock/horror moment some five years back when I first heard THAT teaching! It seems that those who promulgate pre-tribulationism will twist any Scripture that they consider may offer some slender support to their unbiblical doctrine.
I am so very, very glad that God has revealed this truth to you. These things are hard when we are advanced in our years? There is so much truth in the old secular saying "you are never too old to learn"? You can plainly see that Dispensational/pre-tribulationism "splits the Gospel into two parts".
I have been in that same place before-expecting "Christian friends would soon see the same truth" as you say it. Sadly, it is not that simple as you have now found out.
I note what you say regards "lesser 'doctrine'". There are many evangelical Christians that talk about "essentials" and "non-essentials". But, when I read my Bible, I don't see any such distinction, anywhere. Show me one scripture that teaches this fallacy. All Scripture is God breathed "Given by inspiration of God" 2 Tim 3.16?
The Lord bless you.
I am sure I have communicated with you before on the old Shofar site (Bob Mitchell)?

HIMT said...

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Eileen Thompson said...

Hi Colin - my memory isn't what it used to be .... I wonder if it was about this subject or Rev.TV? Eileen

colin said...

Eileen,
Both actually! Mr Mitchell (previously PWMI & pre-trib)came to a position himself where he could see that the Bible didn't contain one verse that taught a pre-trib rapture. Subsequently to his credit he put much teaching on his website to warn against the manifest errors of this doctrine. The catalyst for Mitchell & Prasch pulling out of RTV was Jesse DuPlantiss, although there was previously many other issues festering under the surface about to give. I do often comment on Sarah Acott's blog "GodvsChristianity being once fleeced by these charlatans!
I think (if my memory serves me rightly) it may have been PWMI Paul Wilkinson, (our host may put me right on this) who also abandoned RTV at the same time because of their association with false/heretical teachers (a train crash in ultra slow-motion?)
I am glad that though you say your "memory isn't what it used to be" your marbles must still be in the right place to put together a post like you did!
Keep posting-and the Lord bless you.

Eileen Thompson said...

Thank you Colin - especially for the bit re - my 'marbles' - gave me a chuckle! It does take a lot more concentration and effort to post things these days though.
I think all of my personal Christian friends are pre-trib and consider it not worth 'fighting' about - but I can't agree with them and never understand why the truth of God's word isn't more precious to them. If we are lovers of the truth then God will most certainly reveal the truth to us!
It's so good to be among like minded brothers and sisters here ..... And good to be in touch with you Colin
The Lord bless and keep you , Eileen

Anonymous said...

From webtruth.org/eschatology, taken from a writer infected by Dispensationalism. E.W.Rogers.
(You really ought to read it all).

Surely, it is plain that our hope and that of Israel's differ one from the other. 'We look for a Saviour from heaven' (Phil 3.20) Whom we shall meet in the air; they look for a Deliverer on earth Whose feet will stand on the Mount of Olives (Zech 14.4).
We must always bear in mind that while 'all Scripture is God breathed and profitable' it does not all relate to us. Most of Scripture, indeed, relates to Israel and not to the Church at all, but it has all been written 'for our learning'. We make a great mistake if we suppose all that is in the New Testament is about us. For example, Matt 24 has to do with the Jew and not the Church. But we read it because we are interested in what our Father intends to do in connection with others.

They (Dispensational theologians) call this "Rightly dividing the Word". I rather call it butchering the Word. Very sad.