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Wednesday, 27 January 2016

david reagan lamb and lion ministries: pre-tribulation rapture deception

And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.  (Matthew 24: 11-14)
 
David Reagan Lamb and Lion Ministries

In Defense of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

In Defense of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Can the Rapture be found in this passage?

In Defense of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture


http://christinprophecy.org/articles/2-thessalonians-2-3/

Before considering David Reagan's arguments that the pre-tribulation rapture can be found in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it should be noted with alarm that he is an annihilationist. This view, as far as I am concerned, puts a massive question mark over the validity of his ministry. The lie of annihilationism inevitably deconstructs the gospel of Jesus Christ. If we deny that hell is eternal, then we must also deny eternal salvation and the eternal nature of God's very being, since the very same Greek noun aión is used for all three! I have written about Regan's annihilationist views in some detail in my previous post.{1}

Reagan relies heavily upon Thomas Ice for his pre-tribulation rapture argument based on 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Whilst the Greek noun episunagógé  (v 1) clearly does refer to the rapture, the argument that the noun apostasia (v 3) means physical departure i.e. the rapture is indefensible.

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, (episunagōgēs) we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion (apostasia) comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.... (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)

Thomas Ice: "The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608)." {2}  

Actually there is compelling evidence to show that physical departure is NOT what the above translators had in mind. The marginal notes from the Geneva Bible authored by John Calvin, John Knox, Miles Coverdale, and many other leaders of the Reformation, show that their translation of apostasia as "departure" was in fact "a departure from the faith."

Original Notes From The Geneva/Breeches Bible:

The Second Epistle Of Paul To The Thessalonians:

"Lest the Thessalonians should think that Paul neglected them, because he went to other places, rather than come to them, he writeth unto them and exhorteth them to patience and other fruits of faith, neither to be moved with that vain opinion of such as taught that the coming of Christ was at hand, for as much as before that day there should be a falling away from the true religion, even by a great part of the world, and that Antichrist should reign in the Temple of God;"

2 Thessalonians 2: " 2 He sheweth that the day of the Lord shall not come, till there be a departure from the faith, and that the Antichrist be revealed, 8 whose destruction he setteth out, 15 and thereupon exhorteth to constancy." {3}

Further Evidence:

The Bishops' Bible is an English translation of the Bible produced in 1568 under the authority the Church of England. It was substantially revised in 1572, and the 1602 edition was prescribed as the base text for the King James Bible that was completed in 1611.{4} 

Bishops Bible: "2Th 2:3 Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for [the Lorde shall not come] excepte there come a fallyng away first, & that that man of sinne be reuealed, the sonne of perdition..... " {5} 
 
Wycliffe Bible: "2 Thessalonians 2:3 - No man disseyue you in ony manere. For but dissencioun come first, and the man of synne be schewid, the sonne of perdicioun."{6}

The Middle English word dissencioun” comes from the Old French "dissension" which is not physical departure! {7} 

William Tyndale interpreted apostasia as a departure from the faith..
"sheweth that there shall be a departure from the faith....." 

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion. {8}

Tyndale NT Commentary: "The necessary prelude to the coming of Christ is 'the rebellion'.... falling away hardly gives the force of apostasia..... In classical Greek, the word apostasia denoted a political or military rebellion; but in the Greek Old Testament we find it used of rebellion against God (e.g. Joshua xxii. 22), and this becomes the accepted biblical usage." {9} 

Martin Luther: "In chapter 2, he (Paul) teaches that before the Last Day, the Roman Empire must pass away and Antichrist rise up before God in the Church, and seduce the unbelieving world with false doctrines and signs until Christ shall come and destroy him by His glorious advent, first slaying him with spiritual preaching." {10}

Erasmus: "signifies that great and before-predicted apostasy." {11}

The Greek noun "apostacia" was originally translated "abscessio" (separating or going away) in the Old Latin (Tertullian). The Vulgate has "discessio" (withdrawal, dispersal separation division). The word "discessio" is the Latin word from which we get the English word "dissension" (rebel). Apostasia is translated "revolt" in the the Douay-Rheims Bible which was translated from the Latin Vulgate of Jerome (1582):

Latin Vulgate: ne quis vos seducat ullo modo quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis 

Douay-Rheims: Let no man deceive you by any means: for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. {12}

Historically apostasia was well understood to mean "apostacy", even going back as far as the writings of Ireneaus (130-200) Against Heresies Book V Chapter 25: 

".....concerning whom the Apostle in the second letter to the Thessalonians (ii. 3) says : " Except there first come a falling away,^ and that man of ^ abscessio, rj anjcrTaaia, the apostasy." {13} 

There are fourteen occurrences of aphistémi in the New Testament, and since this verb can mean physical departure as well as a departure from the faith (below), some have used the connection between the word apostasia and aphistémi as a pretext to teach that apostasia means physical departure, i.e. the rapture. Ice's mentor, pre-tribulation rapture authority John Walvoord (1910-2002), once held this view, but he was honest enough to change his mind after considering the lexical arguments of Robert Gundry.{14} Actually Walvoord admitted that no single verse of scripture by itself clearly teaches the pre-tribulation rapture.{14}

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from (aphistémi) the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, (1 Timothy 4:1) 

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away (aphistémi) from the living God. (Hebrews 3:12)

John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), the crazed cult leader responsible for promoting the pre-tribulation rapture deception translated apostasia as apostasy:
 
Darby Bible Translation: "Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;"{15} 

Darby: "With nominal Christians this has necessarily the character of apostacy, or at least it is connected with this apostacy, and is consequent upon it; as Verse 3 (Th2 2:3) teaches us, the apostacy takes place, and then the man of sin is revealed."{16} 

The question remains: Why would Thomas Ice use the inappropriate "alternative definition" of apostasia as physical departure in light of compelling evidence to the contrary?

***************************************************** 
Reagan cites further "passages" (actually isolated verses of scripture) in order to "prove" a pre-tribulation rapture:

But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man. (Luke 21:36)

Reagan: "Notice that He says that believers should live anticipating the Lord’s appearance at any time, and that they are to pray for their escape from all the horrors of the end times which He had been talking about. To me, this passage strongly infers a Pre-Tribulation Rapture."

Luke wrote about the destruction of Jerusalem which was fulfilled in 70AD (verses 5-24). From verse 25 he develops the theme to events associated with the end times i.e. distress of nations and the cosmic disturbances associated with the sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-17). At the point of the sixth seal, the tribulation has ended (Matthew 24:29; Mark 13:24). The extreme imminence of the wrath indicated in Revelation 6:17 follows the great tribulation - notice that imminency it is not indicated in Luke 21 until certain other things have happened which must first take place (Luke 21:9, 28, 31). Since these warnings were given by Jesus Christ to his disciples, it follows that the church will be present when these things take place. The context of Luke 21:25-36 concerns God's wrath i.e. the Day of the Lord and the parousia. The instructions to stay awake and to pray that you may have strength to escape all these things refers to the immediate context of verses 25-38 i.e. the wrath, not the tribulation. Matthew 24 refers to the same eschatalogical events and confirms that believers will suffer persecution and tribulation (24:9-14). The onus is on the believer to endure the persecutions of the tribulation in order to escape the wrath of God (Matthew 24:13). Matthew 24:42: THEREFORE be ready (therefore - consequently i.e. in light of what has been previously said).

***************************************************** 

.....you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath (orgēs) to come. (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10)

For God has not destined us for wrath (orgēn), but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ..... (1 Thessalonians 5:9) 

Reagan: "I consider this passage to be the most convincing one that points to a Pre-Trib Rapture. After all, the Bible clearly teaches in both the Old and New Testaments that the Tribulation will be a period of the pouring out of God’s wrath (Isaiah 24 and Revelation 6-19). This verse promises that Jesus will deliver believers 'from the wrath that is to come.' A similar promise can be found in 1 Thessalonians 5:9)"
  • Isaiah 24 concerns God's judgement upon the earth, it does not speak of tribulation.
  • The church is expressly exempted from God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10). However, "the hour of trial" (peirasmou) in Revelation 3:10 is NOT referred to as God's wrath. The day of God's wrath becomes imminent AFTER the sixth seal is opened and AFTER the cosmic disturbances: 

Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the WRATH (orgēs) of the Lamb, for the great day of their WRATH (orgēs) has come, and who can stand?” Revelation 6:12-17)

It is absolutely NOT the case that the source of the tribulation is the wrath of God!!! 

orgé (wrath) is a completely different word and has a completely different meaning to thlipsis (tribulation).

Further confirmation that Gods wrath does not fall at the beginning of the Great Tribulation is found in Revelation 6:9-10. The martyrs call out to be avenged AFTER the fifth seal is opened, but they are told to "rest" until the number of their fellow martyrs should be complete. These are the tribulation martyrs who will be killed by the beast (Antichrist). The wrath of the beast is indicated here, not the wrath of God.

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Revelation 6:9-10)

 ***************************************************** 

Because you have KEPT my word about patient endurance, I will KEEP (tērēsō)YOU FROM  (ἐκ) the hour of trial (peirasmou) that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. (Revelation 3:10) 

téreó  = keep, guard, observe, watch over.  
ἐκ = out of 
peirasmos = trial, testing, temptation.

Reagan: "These are some of the words that Jesus addressed to the church at Philadelphia. They constitute a promise that true believers will be kept from the testing that will one day encompass the entire world."

The hour of trial in this verse appears to be the persecution of the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation. Greek téreó is to keep/guard/watch over/observe. The Philadelphian Christians kept/guarded/observed (tetērēsas) Christs word. As a result of their faithfulness Christ will keep/guard (tērēsō) them from (ἐκ) the hour of trial/temptation.

The Greek preposition ἐκ (out of) means to exit something from within. In context it would not make sense to say that Christ will keep/guard them if they were to "exit" (be raptured) prior to the Great Tribulation. The only other place where téreó and ἐκ are found together is John 17:6:: I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you KEEP THEM FROM the evil one.

Joe Schimmel has an excellent in depth teaching on Revelation 3:10:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGi9PBUJwAg

Persecution/tribulation is directly linked to the falling away of believers: 

.....yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation (thlipseōs) or persecution (diōgmou) arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. (Matthew 13:21; Mark 4:17) 

And blessed is the one who is not offended by me. (Matthew 11:6 cf.Matthew 5:29; James 1:12) 

The scriptures repeatedly refer to a proliferation of spiritual deception and false teachers in the end times. Matthew 24 gives us an important link between false prophets, tribulation and falling away:

Then THEY (the wicked) will deliver you up to TRIBULATION (thlipsin) and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will FALL AWAY (skandalisthēsontai) and betray one another and hate one another. And many FALSE PROPHETS will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:9-14 cf. 1 Timothy 4:1)

skandalizó =  to set a snare, entice or cause to stumble, cause to sin, cause to become indignant, shock, offend. Are those teaching a pre-tribulation rapture setting a snare that will cause shock, indignation and even hatred when their false teaching fails to materialise? Proverbs tells us that hope deferred makes the heart sick (Proverbs 13:12). Instead of strengthening believers to face the Great Tribulation, many false teachers are feeding the Body of Christ false hopes of deliverance and escapism. In actuality believers are called upon to endure through this terrible time (Matthew 24:13; Mark 13:13; Revelation 2:10). Some pretribulationists are already offended with those who point out their error, such as Paul Wilkinson of The Berean Call/PWMI, who has publicly condemned post-tribulationist/pre-wrath/intra-seal defenders as "heretics". Some say that the timing of the rapture is not a salvation issue, but it appears to be just that for those who will fall away, if in fact they are enticed do so by those giving them a false hope of escape from the Great Tribulation.

{1} http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/edward-fudge-david-reagan-heresy-of.html
{2} http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRapturein2Thessalonians2_3.html
{3} http://www.genevabible.org/Geneva.html
{4} https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishops'_Bible
{5} http://thebiblecorner.com/englishbibles/thebishopsbible/2thessalonians/2.html
{6} http://oldebible.com/wycliffe-bible/2-thessalonians-2.asp
{7} https://www.wordnik.com/words/dissension
{8} http://oldebible.com/tyndale-bible/2-thessalonians-2.asp
{9} Leon Morris, 1956 "Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, 1&2 Thessalonians: An Introduction and Commentary" Inter-Varsity Press p.126
{10} https://www.stepbible.org/?q=version=Luther|reference=2Th.2
{11} http://www.godvine.com/bible/2-thessalonians/2-3
{12} http://vulgate.org/nt/epistle/2thessalonians_2.htm
{13} https://archive.org/stream/treatiseofiren02iren/treatiseofiren02iren_djvu.txt
{14} http://www.walvoord.com/article/137#G77B2
{14} http://www.walvoord.com/article/137#G77B2
{15} http://biblehub.com/dbt/2_thessalonians/2.htm
{16} http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/darby/th2002.htm

Further Links:

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/may2015/jovial53-2.htm  
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/2th002.htm 
http://www.alankurschner.com/2016/01/25/why-pretribulation-teachers-refuse-to-obey-jesus-great-commission-teaching-them-to-obey-everything-i-have-commanded-you-and-remember-i-am-with-you-always-to-the-end-of-the-age/ 

26 comments:

Irv said...

Treena, I have just consumed a sumptuous 16-course meal. I know of no other article I have ever read on the nonsensical and thoroughly unBiblical "The falling away is a pretrib rapture" argument that can begin to surpass what you have just delivered to the worldwide assembly of true followers of Christ! Like Parthenon columns still standing, this column of yours is doing much to keep the apostasy-riddled world of prophecy from totally collapsing!

Treena Gisborn said...

Wow .. I didn't think it was very good - thank you so much Irv x

Scott Pruitt said...

Great article Treena. Keep fighting the good fight!

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you so much Scott God bless tx

colin said...


The heading of your latest posting says it all really.
Pre-trib IS a "deception". Nothing more and nothing less-it goes against the plain teaching of Scripture, unless of course you have been blinded by Darbyism.
Unless a 'theologian' has a theology to jealously guard for reasons of his own personal reputation and/or prestige, such cannot but be overwhelmed by the clear case you have presented; it simply falls apart!
God bless you.

Anonymous said...

Genesis 18 22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[b] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[c] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

Treena Gisborn said...

The pre-trib rapture leaders have blinded so many Christians with their myth Colin. Many need to be de-Darbyized in our time. God bless tx

Neville Stephens said...

Anonymous said...
Genesis 18 22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[b] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[c] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

Why no comment on this one Treena?

Do you only reply to your mates Colin and Irv?

Treena Gisborn said...

Genesis 18:22-25 is a type of the rapture undoubtebly Nev. Sodom was facing the judgement of God and total destruction. My own view is that believers will be raptured before the wrath of God falls after the sixth seal is opened (Revelation 6:17). A pre-wrath rapture is quite consistent with the type of the rapture in Genesis 18. The wrath of God is not the same as the tribulation of the Antichrist.
I do not see the need for any hostility between us Nev? God bless tx

Anonymous said...

"The Judge of all the earth" WILL do right! That is not up for dispute! Disregarding the differences (I HAVE read and studied Van Kampen's work-a good book to read) of pre-wrath and post-trib. We ARE all agreed that pre-tribulationism is NOT Biblical, it IS a most great deception. Certainly God reproves His people, but God's wrath will NOT be upon His people-how could it be? Satan, whom God allows to do his worst on believer and unbeliever alike, this is altogether another matter! A brief study on Job's sufferings will shine much light on this. Satan can do NOTHING unless God permits it!
As a believer in salvation by God's free electing sovereign grace ALONE, I am very sure that many whom are beguiled by the intricacies of Dispensationalism/Darbyism who are among God's elect, will be His-as indeed was the thief on the cross?
But, as believers we must "study" 2 Tim 2.15 and "Grow in grace and KNOWLEDGE" of our Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Peter 3.18. How many fail to do so?
God bless you.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for answering Genesis 18 22 etc. I understand what you are saying regarding
the tribulation and Gods Wrath now that you have explained it further to me,via your comment. Whilst I appreciate your meaty exposition as Irv comments, please can you remember the newer Christians who are grappling with all this. I agree with you regarding the Apostasy,. to me it so clearly refers to people leaving the faith and not the catching away. I have so many other questions though that your article does not answer and for the last few nights I have literally tossed and turned at night and laid awake trying to grapple with them. To me it is not that clear cut and we see through a glass dimly. Maybe I could put them to you at some point. we may not agree with Derby or that Wilkinson chap but please, we must refrain from harsh words like Thug. or crazed, when describing them, otherwise we have lost the argument and are in the flesh. However I thank the Lord for using you and Give God all the Glory I pray that men will also give God the Glory when agreeing with you
God BLess you

Treena Gisborn said...

I refer to Darby (deceased) as "crazed" quite rightly Anonymous... He was a deranged cult leader and a very dangerous man. The pastors of his time warned constantly about him and the damage he was doing. Sometimes strong language is called for i.e.... "You brood of vipers" Matthew 23:23. I will be pleased to attempt to anser any questions you may have. God bless tx

colin said...

Treena,
Where did the phrase "crazed cult leader" come from-who first coined it? I hadn't heard of it until very recently on this ere blog!

Treena Gisborn said...

Charles Spurgeon, George Mueller, Dr. Samuel Tregallis, DL Moody, Benjamin Wills Newton and the other prominent Evangelical leaders publicly warned against Darby as a cult leader and a dangerous false teacher. Spurgeon went to the trouble of taking out out full page newspaper ads warning the believers against Darby.

Darby's false teachings:

* The Sermon on the Mount and The Epistle of James are not for Christians but are part of the Old Testament and are only for unsaved Jews.

* The radical cessationist false doctrine that the Gifts of The Spirit no longer exist.

* The extreme Calvinistic doctrine of infant baptism.

The Exclusive Brethren are considered to be a dangerous cult to this day.

Who coined the phrase "crazed cult leader" --- No one as far as I know. Jacob Prasch has called Darby a "cult leader" and as far as I remember, "delusional" and "despotic" in the DVD Left Behind or Led Astray.

God bless tx

colin said...

Certainly I agree with much in your reply apart from being a Christian cessationist. Many don't have a problem with infant baptism-certainly it is NOT believers baptism-that IS a fact! Dedicate an infant by all means, not baptize.
But the term "crazed cult leader" was certainly not used by the old timers! Spurgeon did indeed call Darby a "thorough pope" which is bad enough!!! Personally I don't like this new term, but I digress. (Moody was the only Arminian among those fine Reformed Calvinistic teachers you name). I have never watched LBOLA, but I can see why there are a lot of angry Dispensationalists out there!
Talking to Prasch live on RTV some years ago; in response to my asking him about Christian unity, he said that the rapture timing shouldn't be a cause for dis-fellowship, how times have changed? Pre-trib is NOT biblical and believers should be warned of its manifest error. The timing being only one part of.
God bless you.

Treena Gisborn said...

Things have changed considerably Colin... God bless tx

Anonymous said...

Hi Treena,

I am the one who has been having sleepless nights re- pre-trib vs post trib, methinks I am gradually being de-Derbyised, by reading and re-reading Revelation and other passages in the bible, but what I am getting confused with is:- Where it states that those who are left will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and go meet the Lord in the air, how will any of the believers be left in the tribulation to change in the twinkling of any eye? I thought believers would be killed by the anti-christ and the rest of the non-believers will take the mark of the beast? OH HELP! Treena I am so confused I am sure I am reading things wrongly.sorry for being thick

Treena Gisborn said...

Revelation 7:9 onwards parallels Matthew 24 - the "great multitude" are not defined as martyrs, they are "a great multitude that no one could number" who appear in heaven (suddenly?). The number of the martyrs is a fixed number.. Revelation 6:11. After the appearance of the great multitude the seventh seal is broken, and there is silence in heaven for half an hour before the wrath of God is poured out on the Earth.

It seems to me that the great multitude of Rev 7:9 are the ones who have escaped the great tribulation via the rapture.

God bless Anonymous.

colin said...

Anon,
I would agree with Treena. Rev 7.9 speaks of a "great multitude that no man can number" (God knows the EXACT number!)"These are they which came out of great tribulation" Rev 7.14. At the Lord's Second Coming the dead and ALIVE will rise "to meet the Lord in the air" 1 Thess 4.17. Jerusalem/Israel will obviously be where the great tribulation is most intense, but nevertheless persecution will be worldwide. Not all believers will be killed by Antichrist, the great many of His people/believers haven't been through the ages! (so I believe). The "twinkling of an eye" scripture (1 Cor 15.52) describes the suddenness of the "change", that is when the dead in Christ that are now but dust and ashes shall receive their glorious incorruptible resurrection bodies, and those who belong to Christ who are still breathing will be likewise transformed into their incorruptible resurrection bodies. Paul says "we shall not all sleep" (that is die) 1 Cor 15.51 and again "we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP..." 1 Thess 4.17.
Don't feel you are "thick" by asking questions like this-the day we stop asking 'stupid' questions will be the day we stop asking any questions!
This rapture does NOT happen seven years before!
Darby and his Dispensational teachers have wrought as you say much confusion in the Church.
May God bless your studies.

Anonymous said...

Phew!,..
.thanks guys. I was getting so confused many many thanks Thank you God


xthanks bothx

Anonymous said...

After the Rapture (or the Second Coming)-or both? This pre-millennial belief that some Christians have seems to be very weird to me. If Christians receive their resurrection bodies a 1000 years before eternity, and rule on the earth under King Jesus, we have a situation where a great many (glorified?) saints are co-existing with mere mortals? I can't get my head around this! So then, we have a scenario during this 1000 year reign where mortals will SEE (and touch?) glorified resurrection saints with THEIR VERY OWN EYES, and yet be totally led astray by Satan at the close of the millennium? Can you please throw some light on this-if you can?

Perplexed!

Anonymous said...

I see that Neville Stephens has pulled my question above from your site and posted it on his with an answer (I never posted it there!). I am not convinced at all by his answer!
I realise that maybe you are occupied with other things to give this much thought-check again next week or two.Cheers.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Anonymous.. The scriptures tell us that the Lord's 1000 year reign will consist of resurrected believers and those who survive the great tribulation and the wrath of God. Joe Schimmel thinks that these will be the people under the age of accountability who will not have taken the Mark of the Beast. Satan will be loosed for a little while at the end of the millenium to deceive the nations (Revelation 20:3, 7-10) Satan is a great deceiver as we know... he deceived Eve in the Garden before the sin problem - it seems that he is equally capable of deceiving the nations at the end of the millenium. More than this is very difficult to say, I do not really have a definitive answer. Sorry for not replying to you sooner. God bless tx

colin said...

Treena,
I have heard many times of this "under the age of accountability" doctrine, but is it biblical?
Many cite 2 Samuel 12.23 in support of it. But this verse only tells us that David will "go to him", that is go to where his dead son is-the grave; Sheol in the Hebrew.
Regarding the question from Anonymous; at this moment in time "we see through a glass darkly" 1 Corinthians 13.12. The New Testament account of the Mount of Transfiguration, nonetheless gives us a very powerful glimpse of the future reality of resurrected saints "co-existing with mere mortals" in Matthew 17.1-3, Luke 9.29-31, Mark 9.1-5.
Moses and Elijah, (one who died, another who died not!) both these 'types' I believe represent those who are "caught up" at the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4.16-17 (the dead and alive rise). It may seem fantastic, with our current level of understanding, that such co-existence will take place, but, the Bible teaches that the Millennial City will hover above the earthly Jerusalem-this will be the habitation of all who rise in the first resurrection.
You would think with what has just been said that it would be impossible for Satan to lead the earthly millennial inhabitants astray, but these are still mortal with indwelling sin, (yet existing in a most blessed environment!) albeit living lives as long as our first parents, nevertheless, the Bible says Satan will deceive the nations as Treena says! I think also, seeing this heavenly city above Jerusalem will seem an 'ordinary' sight to those alive in the millennium, as daft as this sounds now! It will be nothing remarkable just like children today think computers are no big thing-I remember using mechanical adding machines at school!
























































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Colin...

I am quoting from the Good Fight Minsitries website where there is also an audio teaching:

"The 144,000 Jews sealed by God in Revelation 7 do not follow the antichrist (but don’t follow Christ yet either – but other Jews will follow Antichrist).

Revelation 12, God protects the woman (Israel) who is protected for 42 months

Romans 11 says that after the last Gentile is saved (the fullness of the Gentiles), He will turn ungodliness from Jacob (Israel) – we see this in Zechariah 12:2-3, Zechariah 12:10

.....

But there will be survivors from the war of armageddon:
“Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.” –Zechariah 14:16-19

At the end of 1000 years, Satan is loosed from the pit and he deceives the nations once again and tries to go against Jesus in the battle of Gog and Magog.

How are people allowed into the kingdom at this time? We can look to Moses and the generation that entered the Promised Land in the Old Testament. Jews were wandering in the wilderness for 40 years. Only Joshua and Caleb were allowed to enter the Promised Land. So who else went with them? Those who had not yet reached the age of accountability. The Lord said that anyone who was 20 years or younger could go in with them. They would have been too young when the nation of Israel (adult Jews) sinned, therefor those 20 years or younger were not held accountable.

Likewise, when the antichrist is reigning and people (adults) are taking the mark of the beast, young people will not be taking the mark, they’re too young. (And even if they did, they would not be held accountable for it because they are too young to know what their parents are making them do.) So there will be many young people who will enter into the millennium who do not have the mark of the beast and are under the age of accountability.

This fulfills the prophecies spoken of in the Old Testament about Jesus reigning for a 1000 years on earth and the remnant from the tribulation period who have yet to make a decision for Christ in their lifetime.

http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/who-will-populate-the-millennial-kingdom/

I must say that I have no fixed ideas on the subject at the moment, and I do not feel that I have studied it enough to really give a definitive answer. It is a fascinating subject however.

God bless tx

colin said...

Schimmel is quite correct to quote Zechariah 14.16-19 in regards to where those who will populate the millennium come from (a fact often lost on pre-trib believers!). The exact personages and the age range of these gentiles/heathen, however is known only to God.
I do, however disagree with Schimmel on the "age of accountability", certainly he is correct to assert that only Joshua and Caleb plus the new generation of Israelites entered the Promised Land. But to call them "unaccountable"? They soon went awry when they entered the land! Numbers 14.29-30 clearly says that those "above twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me, Doubtless ye shall NOT come into the land." God never said at any time those who were in the wilderness under the age of twenty didn't murmur?-(so I believe-please correct me if I am wrong). Just imagine if your 20th birthday was the week before? Such is God's sovereignty: young or old those names in the Lamb's book of life are written there BEFORE "the foundation of the world" Revelation 13.8, 1 Peter 1.20.
I don't like the word "fascinating", but I agree with you!
God bless you.

PS. As a pastor (and I am not one-maybe there is time yet-but I don't think I will be liked very much!) I can emphasise to a point with this "age of accountability doctrine" especially with believing parents who have lost a young child, pastors are expected to comfort them. I would quote Genesis 18.25.