Beloved, do not
believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are
from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
(1 John 4:1)
Thomas Ice (PTRC) claims to find the rapture in 2 Corinthians 5, a claim which I will show to be completely inaccurate below:
Thomas Ice (PTRC) claims to find the rapture in 2 Corinthians 5, a claim which I will show to be completely inaccurate below:
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/little-used-rapture-passage
First of all, Ice refers to the rapture as "the blessed hope" which is entirely false:
The key verse the PTRC use to promote the pre-tribulation rapture deception: Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus (Titus 2:13). The PTRC works on the presupposition that "the blessed hope" IS the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. There are some very serious problems with this presupposition. The relevant word in Titus 2:13 is "appearing" epipháneia, literally an epiphany, a fitting manifestation or a conspicuous appearing. This emphasises the impact that Christ's visible appearance will have on the entire world when every eye shall see him, both the saved and the unsaved (Revelation 1:7). In the New Testament epipháneia occurs six times and it is always used of Christ's coming (once of His first coming, 2 Timothy 1:10). The context is the appearing of the glory further confirms this understanding since the glory will not be manifest until Christ's second coming to the earth. The blessed hope is therefore synonymous with the parousia i.e. the second coming of Christ (Matthew 24:3, 27, 37; 1 Corinthians 15:23).1
First of all, Ice refers to the rapture as "the blessed hope" which is entirely false:
The key verse the PTRC use to promote the pre-tribulation rapture deception: Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus (Titus 2:13). The PTRC works on the presupposition that "the blessed hope" IS the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. There are some very serious problems with this presupposition. The relevant word in Titus 2:13 is "appearing" epipháneia, literally an epiphany, a fitting manifestation or a conspicuous appearing. This emphasises the impact that Christ's visible appearance will have on the entire world when every eye shall see him, both the saved and the unsaved (Revelation 1:7). In the New Testament epipháneia occurs six times and it is always used of Christ's coming (once of His first coming, 2 Timothy 1:10). The context is the appearing of the glory further confirms this understanding since the glory will not be manifest until Christ's second coming to the earth. The blessed hope is therefore synonymous with the parousia i.e. the second coming of Christ (Matthew 24:3, 27, 37; 1 Corinthians 15:23).1
As His "coming" (Greek, "parousia")
expresses the fact; so "brightness, appearing," or
"manifestation" (epiphaneia) expresses His personal
visibility when He shall come.2
Ice: "First, Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." This is significant in that the "judgment seat," or "bema" is the special judgment for church age believers only, not the end of the millennium great white throne judgment of unbelievers. Since verse 10 is part of Paul's passage where he has expressed his desire to be taken in the rapture, it supports the notion of pretribulationism since the bema will take place after the rapture of the church, while in heaven, in order to prepare the church for her return with Christ at the second coming (Rev. 19:1-10)."
Ice: "First, Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." This is significant in that the "judgment seat," or "bema" is the special judgment for church age believers only, not the end of the millennium great white throne judgment of unbelievers. Since verse 10 is part of Paul's passage where he has expressed his desire to be taken in the rapture, it supports the notion of pretribulationism since the bema will take place after the rapture of the church, while in heaven, in order to prepare the church for her return with Christ at the second coming (Rev. 19:1-10)."
For we know that if
the tent that is our earthly home is
destroyed, we have a
building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the
heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly
dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we
are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would
be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is
mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this
very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we
are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the
body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight.
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the
body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we
make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the
judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due
for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. (2
Corinthians 5:1-10)
In verse 1, Paul speaks about his earthly home which he describes as a "tent" being "destroyed" from the Greek word kataluó - the same word Jesus Christ used for the destruction of the temple (Matthew 24:2). It seems unmistakable that Paul is talking about physical death, since the rapture does not involve the destruction of the body: .....the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:52-53).
Paul wrote to the Philippian Church in a similar vein about being torn between life and death:
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again. (Philippians 1:19-26 cf. Romans 14:8).
Furthermore, Paul knew that he must stand trial in Rome and that he would be martyred (Acts 23:11; 27:24; 2 Timothy 4:6).
These passages certainly do not speak of the rapture, but of physical death!
The Judgement Seat of Christ (Bema) is the "Day" spoken of by Paul, when the works of believers will be revealed by fire (1 Corinthians 3:13; 2 Corinthians 5:10). The scriptures tell us that the Bema occurs on that day i.e. the day of universal judgement (note that Paul does not say it will happen after some fictitious pre-tribulation rapture) (2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Revelation 19:8).
Ice: "Second, Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 the following: "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." Here Paul taught the doctrine of the resurrection, while in 2 Corinthians 5 he links it with the rapture. Although 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 stands on its own as a rapture passage, it is further strengthened by Paul's rapture teachings in 2 Corinthians 5. Paul is writing to the same church in both epistles, thus, he is speaking of the same subject-the rapture-both times when he addresses the subject of the resurrection."
Paul does speak about the rapture in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. However we cannot link the two passages in the way that Ice does, since 2 Corinthians 5 does not speak about the rapture as already demonstrated. Is it inconceivable that Paul would speak of different subjects in his letters to the Corinthians?
Ice's subsequent points are simply further ramblings in order to justify 2 Corinthians 5 as a pre-tribulation rapture passage.
In verse 1, Paul speaks about his earthly home which he describes as a "tent" being "destroyed" from the Greek word kataluó - the same word Jesus Christ used for the destruction of the temple (Matthew 24:2). It seems unmistakable that Paul is talking about physical death, since the rapture does not involve the destruction of the body: .....the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:52-53).
Paul wrote to the Philippian Church in a similar vein about being torn between life and death:
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again. (Philippians 1:19-26 cf. Romans 14:8).
Furthermore, Paul knew that he must stand trial in Rome and that he would be martyred (Acts 23:11; 27:24; 2 Timothy 4:6).
These passages certainly do not speak of the rapture, but of physical death!
The Judgement Seat of Christ (Bema) is the "Day" spoken of by Paul, when the works of believers will be revealed by fire (1 Corinthians 3:13; 2 Corinthians 5:10). The scriptures tell us that the Bema occurs on that day i.e. the day of universal judgement (note that Paul does not say it will happen after some fictitious pre-tribulation rapture) (2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Revelation 19:8).
Ice: "Second, Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 the following: "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." Here Paul taught the doctrine of the resurrection, while in 2 Corinthians 5 he links it with the rapture. Although 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 stands on its own as a rapture passage, it is further strengthened by Paul's rapture teachings in 2 Corinthians 5. Paul is writing to the same church in both epistles, thus, he is speaking of the same subject-the rapture-both times when he addresses the subject of the resurrection."
Paul does speak about the rapture in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. However we cannot link the two passages in the way that Ice does, since 2 Corinthians 5 does not speak about the rapture as already demonstrated. Is it inconceivable that Paul would speak of different subjects in his letters to the Corinthians?
Ice's subsequent points are simply further ramblings in order to justify 2 Corinthians 5 as a pre-tribulation rapture passage.
Further Reading:
http://www.poweredbychrist.com/Pretrib_Rapture_Dishonesty.html
http://post-trib.net/macpherson/tribpages.html
http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/the-seven-year-pre-tribulation-rapture.html
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/
http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0006.html
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/an-open-letter-to-t-a-mcmahon-of-the-berean-call/
https://www.moriel.org/component/k2/item/2631-a-response-to-david-reagan-s-in-defense-of-the-pre
https://www.moriel.org/articles-new/2015-12-06-13-31-51/bill-walthall/item/2633-a-welcome-yes-to-thomas-ice.html
Speaking of the rapture, neither Ice nor any other PTRC parrot here in the States has challenged this recent MacPherson offering now on the net:
ReplyDeleteEdward Irving Vs. John Darby
by Dave MacPherson
As my readers know, 1830 was a big year!
That's when 15-year-old Margaret Macdonald in Scotland was the first person ever to "see" a pretrib rapture in the Bible.
And all of my writings show that London preacher Edward Irving and his followers, as well as Margaret, clearly taught pretrib earlier than John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren who has repeatedly - and wrongfully - been viewed as the "father of pretrib dispensationalism."
It's true that Margaret was first when she said "the one taken and the other left" happens BEFORE "THE WICKED" (Antichrist) is revealed. To try to claim that their hero Darby should get credit for pretrib, Darby idolizers like LaHaye, Ice, Lindsey (and more recently British scholar Paul Wilkinson) either distort what Margaret was saying or (much worse) deliberately omit quoting either the first (rapture) half of her main point or the last (tribulation) half.
True, Margaret's short 117-line "revelation" account is confessedly not as clear as Irving's quarterly journal "The Morning Watch" (hereafter "TMW," published from 1829-1833, a total of 3993 pages), so for the sake of argument:
LET'S FORGET MARGARET MACDONALD!
Let's forget Margaret for a while and see if at least Irving and his group taught pretrib before "father" Darby did.
Right now let's look briefly at the earliest "rapture" development of the Irvingites and the Darbyist Brethren during the contested period stretching from 1827 to 1839:
1827: A few, including John Bray, have claimed that Darby believed in pretrib this early. But Darby's first two papers (1827 and 1828) discussed only the "heavenly church" and the "church's unity" - and Darby then looked for only the posttrib "restitution" and "refreshing" in Acts 3. (I invite all to Google "Is John Bray a PINO?")
1829: Darby's first paper focusing on prophecy. He expected only the Rev. 19 coming. And he showed Irvingite influence. He mentioned "Mr. Irving" five times, "Ben-Ezra" (Lacunza) once, and "Morning Watch" twice. Darby said he was an avid reader of Irving's works and journal and heard Irving preach. (My "Rapture Plot" discusses Darby on 145 pages.)
1830: Margaret had her pretrib revelation in the spring. TMW (Sep.) reflected her pretrib partial rapturism (church/church dichotomy) and saw worthy "Philadelphia" raptured before "the great tribulation" and less worthy "Laodicea" left behind. Darby was still defending posttrib historicism in Dec. in the "Christian Herald" and waiting for only Matt. 25's "judging of the nations." (Darby discusses TMW four times in his 1830 paper and five times in an 1831 letter. And from 1830 to 1833 TMW repeatedly taught pretrib and any-moment imminence while Darby was still defending the posttrib view, as my "Rapture Plot" book portrays.)
1832: Darby still doesn't believe in a future Antichrist but only in "present antichristian principles."
1834: We find Darby and the Jews waiting for the same day (Heb. 10:37).
1837: Darby saw the church "going in with Him to the marriage [Rev. 19], to wit, with Jerusalem and the Jews"!
1839: Darby's first clear pretrib teaching. His pretrib symbol was Rev. 12:5's "man child" caught up before a 3.5-year tribulation - but Darby didn't admit that it had been Irving's pretrib symbol in 1831 in TMW!
Very interesting Irv. The pre-trib rapture theory was riddled with deceit from the very beginning! God bless tx
ReplyDeleteIf God loves everyone (John 3.16) then why does it matter whether great tribulation is pre, mid or post? He loves everyone regardless-so they will be saved! God says that He is not willing that any perish but that all should repent 2 Pet 3.9.
ReplyDeleteWhy be concerned with the trivial matter of the Rapture timing if all will be saved anyway? Jesus died for everyone so everyone will be saved! Lighten up will you?
Treena, methinks that "Doctor" Ice well deserves your application to him of "further ramblings" as you concluded at the close of your incisive article above. With apologies to Job, we could substitute Ice for Job in Job 35:16 and find ourselves reading "Therefore doth Ice open his mouth in vain; he multiplieth words without knowledge." Ice thinks that quantity equals quality and that endless repetition of "what" verses automatically prove the "when" of the rapture - especially "proof" of a pretrib rapture! Despite Ice's mass production of words in his numerous web articles and books, he has yet to discover even one verse or chapter or book in the Bible which clearly teaches an any-moment pretrib rapture - a chilling thought for sure during a cold day in January!
ReplyDeleteIndeed Irv, "A fool multiplies words" (Ecclesiastes 10:14). It is a shame that "doctor" Ice cannot find an honorable occupation. I dare say his ramblings are very lucrative, but what will he do in the end? (Jeremiah 5:31) Thank you for your thoughts. God bless tx
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, you should take the warnings of Jesus Christ seriously:
ReplyDelete".....many are called, but few are chosen.”
"He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out." Luke 13:22-28
Matthew 24:50 the lord of that servant will come in a day when he doesn't expect it, and in an hour when he doesn't know it,
ReplyDeleteThe precise time "when" Jesus will come is not known.... However: "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour." (Matthew 25:13) Matthew 24 gives a summary of the Signs of the End of the Age. Those who are "awake" will be ready!
ReplyDeleteREV 3. V(10) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
ReplyDeleteIs it not a fact that MANY days and hours have already passed by in 2016? Yet, surely the Lord WILL Come as "a thief in the night"? His Coming WILL be post tribulation, and though we know not the "day nor the hour" His people will KNOW "the signs of the times" Matthew 16.3. The Lord Jesus admonished His people in the Gospel accounts MANY times to WATCH; as also His servant Paul did in 1 Thessalonians 5.6. God's elect will KNOW when to "flee" Matt 24.16/Mark 13.14 etc. They WILL know to do this, because as you have hitherto said to our anonymous friend, "many are called, but few are chosen", how "few" the "chosen" are I have not a clue! I am very sure it will be more than the "eight souls saved by water" 1 Peter 3.20. Of that I have no doubt!!!
ReplyDeleteFor the life of me, I find it impossible to understand (revelation from God apart) why many believers confound the "thief in the night" to teach an any moment coming!?
If only we would but fix our eyes on God's word ALONE and dismiss all the jiggery pokery of the false and unscriptural theology thrust on believers by the likes of 'Dr' Ice and his cohorts? I certainly struggle to ascertain the fate of these 'believers' who would attempt to lead His flock astray-but thanks be to God, this IS absolutely impossible! Read John 10.28?
God bless you.
God bless you Colin
ReplyDeleteJoe Schimmel - The biggest deception of Calvinism and Evangelical movement:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwXi6-2K4_I
Greetings, Treena. Excellent rundown on Thomas Ice who appears to have already started to run down! I'm surprised he seemingly hasn't come out yet with his own nonsensical disparagement of Joe Schimmel's pretrib-decimating DVD titled "Left Behind or Led Astray?" But Ice doesn't need to; he's already leaning on Paul Wilkinson's wretched rebuttal which (believe it or not) had the impudent arrogance to seemingly question whether or not those involved with that DVD are even genuine Christians! And Ice also knows that fellow Texan David Reagan's steer-like horns have also grown and recently produced his own foaming-at-the-mouth charge against the DVD. Fortunately two prophecy writers have just responded (on Google) to Reagan. In alphabetical order they are: Dave MacPherson (whose article "David Reagan: Texas-Sized Copycat Artist..." is on the "Our Daily Bread" blog) and Jacob Prasch (whose article "A Response to David Reagan's 'In Defense of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture'..." is on the "Moriel Ministries" site). Readers of these two items may want to take some tranquilizers first!
ReplyDeleteOne error leads to another Irv. David Reagan has stated on his website that he believes the annihilationists have the better of the argument. He bases this on 2 Tim 6:14-16. I haven't looked into what he has said very deeply at the moment, but I intend to do so after my current research. The arrogance of these pre-trib leaders is indescribable. When I first became a Christian it was because I wanted to know the TRUTH.... for me that is what it is all about... what a disappointment and shock it was when I found that most church leaders are deceivers! God bless you tx
ReplyDeleteA RESPONSE TO DAVID REAGAN 'S "In Defense of the Pre–Tribulation Rapture" AND AN APPEAL TO MY TRADITIONAL PRE-TRIBULATIONAL BRETHREN:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.moriel.org/component/k2/item/2631-a-response-to-david-reagan-s-in-defense-of-the-pre
A Welcome Yes to Thomas Ice:
https://www.moriel.org/articles-new/2015-12-06-13-31-51/bill-walthall/item/2633-a-welcome-yes-to-thomas-ice.html
Treena,
ReplyDeleteI have just read Jacob's letter, sadly I believe he is wasting his time-I don't think for one minute any fruit will come of it. There is more to this Thomas Ice than meets the eye-a big clue is in his surname!
When so many 'theologians' have written so 'eloquently' a vast number of books in support of the pre-tribulation rapture deception over the last near 160 plus years, they are hardly going to capitulate en masse now! When 'teachers' of the likes of Ice and others twist the Scriptures as you have demonstrated, there seems (to me at least) a hardening to have taken place that is not going to melt in any round table debate?
O dear! When I informed Alan Franklin (Freepress homepage) of my change from pre-trib to post-trib, he bombarded my mailbox with Dr Reagans rapture teaching!!!
And Franklin IS (I repeat IS) a very good friend of Prasch!
God bless.
I agree with you Colin - I don't think Thomas Ice is serious for one minute... and reading Jacobs post, I get the feeling he suspects this as well and is calling his bluff.... though I may be wrong. I think that Jacob is very gracious to these pre-trib deceivers. God bless tx
ReplyDeleteOccasionally I look on soundchristian.com (not sound at all!).
ReplyDeleteOf David Reagan it says "One of the nicest people you will ever meet, he is a foremost Bible prophecy expert...." And that's just the start of the plaudits!
The cult of the personality has often bothered me-I would rather be sat in a room with a miserable old sod telling me the truth than a slicky slime ball trying to charm the socks of me!!!
ooooh Colin shocked at language x
ReplyDeleteRe Colin's mention of the long lasting "pre-tribulation rapture deception," I've $eriou$ly been $urmi$ing about the rea$on$ why $ecret rapture merchandi$er$ keep go$$iping endle$$ly about their $ecret tran$lation of believer$. Can anyone $ugge$t the motive the $ame $cripture twi$ter$ $eem to be po$$e$$ing?
ReplyDeleteIrv, can we have another clue, please? I am a little slow on the uptake and am not the brightest on the block by any means-evidenced by my lack of upbringing/ Christian decorum in my previous post. By the way, I note that your eye sight must be failing you, because for some strange reason you have keyed the American dollar symbol instead of the letter S (silly man!). May I respectfully suggest you take a visit to your optician?
ReplyDeleteColin: LOL !
ReplyDelete