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Friday, 29 April 2016

jacob prasch moriel ministries: the rapture, the holy spirit and the restrainer: some difficult questions about the intra-seal position - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12).

I have been working on this project for some months in order to present all the arguments against Intra-Seal together in one place. The final transcript has now been uploaded onto Amazon as it is much too long for a blog post. Some new insights into Intra-Seal are included which bring further clarity to the inherent problems associated with this deceptive teaching. My existing Intra-Seal posts are virtually excerpts from the publication and they will remain on the blog. I have retained this post because I have quoted the remarks made by Jacob Prasch in the comments section below. At this point in time, my arguments are as exhaustive as I can manage, though perhaps there will be more to say on this subject in the future. I have priced the publication at the minimal cost available on Amazon: $0.99.

The Intra-Seal Rapture Deception Exposed   
As devised and taught by Jacob Prasch
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B06X6N2JJT

Below is the description I have uploaded to Amazon:

The purpose of the publication is to expose Jacob Prasch’s systematic denial of the gospel and the ministry of the Holy Spirit during the 70th week of Daniel. 

The Intra-Seal theory is relatively new in the world of rapture theories. Jacob Prasch seems to have brought it into the public domain at around the time he wrote his book “Shadows of the Beast” in 2011.

The timing of the rapture is a highly contentious subject amongst premillennialists, some even go so far as to suggest that if you do not believe their particular view, then you are not a genuine Christian. My aim is not to alienate those who believe a different view to myself, though no doubt this publication will offend some people. The truth is often offensive when it conflicts with our presuppositions. The Apostle Paul asked the Galatian Church: “Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?” (Galatians 4:16).

The main flaw of pretribulationism is the timing of the rapture. All other pre-trib scriptural errors flow from this basic misconception. In contrast to pretribulationism, the problems surrounding Intra-Seal are not associated with the timing of the rapture at all, rather Intra-Seal is an attack upon the gospel itself, and as such I view it is a highly dangerous deception.

I have attempted to unravel the various false assertions of the Intra-Seal theory and compare them with the scriptures as follows: 

  • Eschatology: The apostasy and the Man of Lawlessness in Bible prophecy.
  • The identity of the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 defies an unequivocal position.
  • Evidence that the restrainer is the Archangel Michael.
  • When precisely is the restrainer taken out of the way?
  • The murky history of the pre-tribulation rapture theory.
  • A summary of the Intra-Seal deception.
  • Two interim periods… The invalid parallel between the 70th week of Daniel and the period between the resurrection of Jesus Christ and Pentecost.
  • The reversal of Pentecost as Prasch relates it to the 70th week of Daniel.
  • Is the metaphor of “the night” relevant to the period between the resurrection of Jesus Christ and Pentecost?
  • The invalid comparison between the tribulation saints and the church in Smyrna.
  • The seven spirits of God - the omnipresence of the Holy Spirit.
  • Birth Pains as defined in the gospel of John are a defective eschatological motif. (John 16:16-24).
  • Does “The Shattering Of The Power Of The Holy People” refer to Israel or the church?
  • Does the Age of Grace come to an end during the 70th week of Daniel?
  • The recapitulation of the seven plagues and their timing.
  • The timing of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:1-14.
  • More Intra-Seal lies related to Michael and the term katechó (restrainer).
  • Further issues: Prasch’s maniacal handling of the 70th week of Daniel.
  • Why does it matter? Intra-Seal is much more than a timing issue.
  • God is not the author of confusion. (1 Corinthians 14:33).
  • Conclusion: Can we reasonably write off the gospel and the ministry of the Holy Spirit during the 70th week of Daniel? 


                          


67 comments:

colin said...

In my opinion, you have put together a convincing and cogent argument that derails JP's highly convoluted theory. I think JP is perhaps trying too hard to be original, and as a result, his doctrine, when held under the searching light of God's word creates more questions than answers.
I know that you otherwise regard JP very highly, and it would be good if Moriel would be forthcoming with a reply in due course. Although, in my humble opinion (for what it is worth) I believe that there is no reply that will hold water.
May God continually bless your studies.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Colin... JP is an excellent teacher, but I think we should not fall into the trap of following any man's teaching. God bless you.

Irv said...

Thomas Ice's "apostasia nonsense" indeed, as you Treena have correctly summed up Ice's deliberate distortion of the Word in your marvelous presentation and analysis above! You may be interested in learning that MacPherson's article "Walvoord Melts Ice" (which in detail shows how utterly wrong Ice is on the real meaning of II Thess. 2:3's "falling away") has just been put on "The three Views on the Rapture:..." (Facebook). It brings out that Walvoord as well as posttribs like Ladd and Gundry have collectively melted Ice so much he now resembles a huge puddle of water!

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you so much once again Irv. I have tried to view the link, but it is a closed FB group :( What do you think about the intra-seal view? God bless.

Irv said...

Concerning the "intra-seal view," it to me is a fairly new view and I need to do some research on it. Sounds and appears interesting and worthy of consideration. Thanks for your superb coverage of the state of Christianity today, Treena, and great will be your reward!

Irv said...

I should add that I have checked and found that MacPherson's article "Walvoord Melts Ice" can also be found on Google.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Irv. God bless.

colin said...

Have you learned any more regarding Moriel/JP's position on this awkward teaching?
Having more thoughts on this; is it not strange that for a teacher who has oftentimes been vocal and highly critical of Protestant reformed Calvinistic theology, especially cessationism, that he should promulgate a doctrine that advocates men can be saved in the tribulation period/70th week, without the direct and miraculous agency of the Holy Spirit? Really, you couldn't make this up!
Darby died some 25 years before the birth of Pentecostalism, and not unlike Dispensationalism its growth has been nothing short of phenomenal. Pentecostalism shares much with Roman Catholicism in regard to the continuation of the so-called miraculous gifts and apostolic/papal succession. It matters not whether JP tries to get around this difficulty by sophism saying "The Greek text simply states that 'He (the Holy Spirit) will cease restraining', it does not say the restrainer will be taken away." A reformed theologian, from his understanding of God's word, could use the same argument in reverse regarding the cessation of the miraculous gifts!
Without exception, the Puritans, Westminster divines, and latter day reformed theologians such as Ryle, Spurgeon, Newton, Pink, et al, taught and held to cessationism.
God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

Disappointingly I have not learned anything more Colin which is surprising since Moriel told me there were more videos and explanations being produced and imminently to be aired a couple of weeks ago. I am thinking of producing something comprehensive in the near future - maybe a booklet or something like that. I agree that none of JP's arguments make sense. What has occurred to me today is that this is the isolated teaching of one man who says that if we do not agree, then we do not understand the "doctrine of the Holy Spirit". JP teaches intra-seal "prophetically" and yet no one within the church has critiqued it (1 Corinthians 14:29; 2 Corinthians 13:1; 2 Peter 1:20). Biblically I think there should be two or three witnesses to attest to the reliability of any "new" teaching - why haven't other leaders of note tested this doctrine? I have slightly edited my post this afternoon. JP is undoubtedly a very powerful personality, but my concern is such that I think innevitably I will have to take it further.

colin said...

Treena,
When you say "why haven't other leaders of note tested this doctrine?" I would only say that, personally, I don't move in non reformed circles, (not that I move in many circles!) and I am not sure who exactly these "other leaders of note" are! Are there any? Besides, whoever they may be, they are perhaps too busy moving around in their own little circles, and have not the time or inclination to look into these things, do you not think?
I think we live in such a fast moving age today; that a great many could sit listening to a sermon on a Sunday and not detect the small percentage of error that comes with the truth? Spurgeon coined it well when he said "Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is the difference between right and almost right." We know well what happens when "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump"?
I think it a very good idea of yours to produce a pamphlet on this matter, but quite how it would circulate, I know not! Sadly, it is my belief that not too many are interested.
May God continue to bless your efforts.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Colin. There are those JP is friendly with who should be interested... his own fellowship elders in London for instance, Good Fight Ministries and suchlike. I was thinking along the lines of a PDF document - actually something more comprehensive has been requested. Everyone I have spoken to without exception tells me that they do not understand this teaching. Like the pre-trib rapture theory, it may not be of primary importance doctrinally at this present time, but since it concerns the "doctrine of the Holy Spirit", it will have its effect in due course I believe and as such it is important enough to give our attention to. God bless.

colin said...

Yes, indeed. I had forgot about JP's London connections where he preaches on a regular basis; Bridge Lane Christian Fellowship and Stroud Green Christian Assembly are/were two notable venues for him. Until about five years ago I used to listen to the weekly sermons from BLCF and occasionally SGCA (heavily affiliated with Smith Wigglesworth). JP last preached at Tony Pearce's BLCF as recent as 3rd April this year (morning and evening). Tony Pearce is a Dispensational/Pre-tribulation rapture teacher, although I believe he was always a bit shaky in this area, apart from this, I had always considered him an otherwise very sound teacher.
I logged on to these two London congregation websites tonight, and I quote from BLCF's Statement of Faith-article 10; The Holy Spirit has come into the world to reveal and glorify Christ and to apply the saving work of Christ to men. He convicts and draws sinners to Christ, imparts new life to them, continually indwells them....." In regard to the elect, who would disagree with this? Now, I ask you, with such a bold Statement of Faith as this, whoever would dare say that men and women can be saved in the great tribulation without the direct work of God the Holy Spirit? Such a notion is utterly preposterous at best. Yet we are asked to believe it!!!
No doubt some will accuse us of "straining a gnat and swallowing a camel"; but this is most definitely NOT so.
When you talk of these things not being of "primary importance", I can only say that the apostle Paul didn't look upon it quite this way-Acts 20.27. Some things may not seem as important as others, but nevertheless the apostle Paul said otherwise.
"A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump"?
Your statement "since it concerns the doctrine of the Holy Spirit" is a very astute one. As Triune believers in the Godhead should we not cling jealously to it?
Secker of Tewkesbury said it well (16th century) "Repentance, though it be the act of man, is but the gift of God."

Very sorry to hear JP has suffered another health setback; may God grant him the strength to continue his itinerary, and that his preaching by the grace of God would bring precious souls to Christ.
God bless you.

Treena Gisborn said...

You are right Colin - any false view we have about the Holy Spirit is primary of course. To say that "Pentecost is reversed" is a huge statement. Jesus' work on the cross is once for all - why would God "revert back to being the God of the Old Testament" and remove His Holy Spirit from the world? Surely God's revelation is progressive not regressive? The "replay of Exodus" is directed towards those who refuse to turn to Him finally - the godlessness of people who suppress the truth by their wickedness (Colossians 3:6). There are many thoughts and questions going through my mind and this teaching is very confusing to say the least. God bless.

colin said...

You are correct in asserting that God in Christ has progressively revealed His word in the Old and New Testaments. But when you say "why would God revert to being the God of the Old Testament" sits a little uncomfortably with me. Let us not forget that Jesus Christ was the pre-incarnate Angel of the LORD, and the God who led the Israelites over the Red Sea; "Before Abraham was, I am" etc.? He is "the same yesterday, and today, and forever." He "was slain from the foundation of the world" therefore the "Seed" of the "woman" all that time ago in the first Messianic prophecy in Genesis 3.15! I cannot accept this "Pentecost is reversed" doctrine, when I consider what is involved. The Holy Spirit according to John 3.8 is like the wind, we "canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth." Yet JP would seem to know otherwise. How can any man put the Holy Spirit in a box so to speak and tell us how He operates? Again, men were always saved by God's grace alone in OT times, like today. OT Israel as a nation were saved first by God's grace ALONE, THEN given the law at Sinai as a code to live by. Nothing has changed; the Lord even said "Why call ye me Lord, Lord, and DO NOT the things which I say?" "If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14.15, What commandments? The OT saints looked forward to the cross, NT saints look back to it! 1 Peter 1.10-12 sheds much light on this. ONE church in all ages. Many seem to lose sight of the fact that God's Holy Spirit was at work throughout the OT? For one example, how was Samson empowered? Granted, we have far greater light today! Let us use it?
God bless your studies.

Treena Gisborn said...

It is the dogmatic element of what JP teaches about the Holy Spirit that is a concern to me Colin. Perhaps I should rephrase my comment and say: Why would God behave as He did before the Gospel was given? From the world's point of view we have the greater light of the gospel which the OT prophets longed to see (Matthew 13:17. Anyway much to think about. God bless.

colin said...

A little thought-

There is a Redeemer,
Jesus God's own Son,
Precious Lamb of God Messiah,
Holy One,
Thank You oh my Father for giving us Your Son,
And leaving Your Spirit,
'Til the work on earth is done.

(After which "we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness" 2 Peter 3.13-after the millennium).

There was much wrong with Keith Green's theology, but I don't think too many would find fault with the above lyrics?
Many would disagree with the last TWO lines-maybe JP and others would modify it before singing it in their churches?
Many people sing songs like the above and pray the Lord's prayer "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven...." like automatons without understanding what they are saying?

God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thought provoking Colin. Did Keith Green write that song? Things keep occuring to me and I am continuing my research. Apparently it took JP three years to write his book Harpazo, so I don't expect to demolish his argument about the Holy Spirit overnight. I have found nothing to corroborate his position biblically, though I believe he is absolutely spot on about the timing of the rapture. God bless.

Monopode said...

This may be a bit off course but I have read your article and all the comments and feel quite alarmed about Jacob Prasch now. I have always enjoyed his teachings on Moriel and YouTube and considered him an excellent teacher. I am not in a fellowship and outside the bible I like to use a small number of websites to enlarge my knowledge and see what's going on in the church. This morning I watched a video where he was talking about the first 3 and a half years of the last 7 before Jesus comes back to destroy the Beast. Prasch said that the gospel as we know it won't be preached at this time but instead it will be a gospel of the kingdom! Isn't this the same as, or close to, preaching another gospel? I can't remember where it is in the New Testament but it says we aren't to accept another gospel from anyone, even an angel. Surely the gospel to the Jews is the same as to the Gentiles? I hate to think that a fine teacher is getting it so wrong.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Monopode. Could you give me the link to this particular teaching please? I will listen to it and respond to you. There is only one gospel - the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of salvation are one and the same - the everlasting gospel(Revelation 14:6). I usually agree with JP, but on the Restrainer I am afraid not, though I do not view the Restrainer as a critical debate. God bless x

Monopode said...

Thank you, that would be helpful. I hope I've misunderstood his meaning.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_qwUKA5oUs

My name is Nick by the way.

Treena Gisborn said...

I see what you mean Monopode. I don't know why JP is saying "the first three and a half years of tribulation". The great tribulation does not begin until the halfway point of the 70th week when the Antichrist sets himself up in the temple(2 Thessalonians 2:4). The more he speaks about this subject, the more uneasy I become. There will be warnings of impending divine judgement during this time, but essentially we are preaching that now, the only difference is that the end will be that much closer. I don't know why JP is calling this "the gospel of the kingdom" and that "it will not be a gospel of grace and peace". I do have a copy of Shadows of the Beast and also the excerpt from Harpazo which deals with the Restrainer..... even though I do have all the information, I still cannot make any sense out of it biblically. I have to say that I simply do not agree and that there is only ONE everlasting gospel as in Revelation 14:6. God bless.

Monopode said...

Thank you Treena. I share your unease and like you cannot make any sense out of this. I read somewhere some people believe that Peter and Paul preached different gospels equally valid but how can that be? It is confusing for us so unbelievers would have little chance of understanding it. I wonder if this is where Prasch is going. We know there is no Jew nor Greek, no male or female etc so there cannot be a different gospel or slant on the gospel. God doesn't alter. The restrainer question doesn't really matter to me because there isn't as far as I can see a clear teaching on it in the word. Whether it is Michael or The Holy Spirit cannot matter for believers or it would be written plainly I would think. I don't know, it's giving me a headache turning it over and over.

Keep on praying and doing what you do, Treena. God be with us.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Monopode

JP explains the difference in the terms, though it is the same gospel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI3tj3cORV8

I have to say that if "the gospel of the kingdom" i.e. "THE GOOD NEWS" is "evangelical" and involves grace and peace as JP says.... then why does he teach that it will be different during the great tribulation?

I keep going back to Revelation 14. The messages of the angels below are spoken during the great tribulation:

Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (Revelation 14:6-7)

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” (Revelation 14:9-11)

It seems to me that the warnings of the angels are full of grace. God does NOT want people to take the mark and to perish during the GT, he wants all to turn to Him. .....not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.(2 Peter 3:9)

The problem is that if JP is wrong and the Holy Spirit is NOT the Restrainer, then many Christians will believe that it is too late for the lost during the GT - and this could have serious implications. I think that such speculations are potentially dangerous and even presumptuous. JP's teachings around this area are becoming more and more confusing and unhelpful.

God bless

Monopode said...

I watched the recording and am glad to see Prasch sees it all as one gospel. I can also see where you are coming from about the identity of the restrainer. My take on this is that no-one, no matter how learned in the scriptures, should draw lessons on what it DOESN'T say. If the bible is silent on the identity of the restrainer then we should all admit that we don't KNOW and have different opinions. If we are on Earth when the tribulation begins we should carry on witnessing until we are silenced when and if the beast conquers us and shatters us. The only issue I can imagine is whether we should witness to a person who has taken the mark. They are the only people I read of who cannot be saved. As we aren't given instructions by Jesus on this subject then it won't likely be anything we will face.

I hope the influence Prasch has on the body of Christ doesn't lead anyone the wrong way. He is, I am convinced, a genuine brother and one of the best teachers we have in this time but any of us can be deceived. The bible is clear on this. I hope this confusion can be cleared up.

God bless you.

Colin said...

colin said...

This subject continues to perplex many, but, I believe needlessly so. Pre-trib teachers have been rightly castigated for teaching that men and women can be saved during great tribulation without the presence of the Holy Spirit on earth. It is therefore strange that JP believes that the Holy Spirit will not be on earth during the great tribulation, as God's word expressly says He is "upholding all things by the word of his power" Hebrews 1.3. The OT saints could not have believed on the coming Christ without the Holy Spirit, or could they? Certainly the Old Testament Church was empowered at Pentecost and salvation, because of Israel's national rejection of Christ Jesus, was now to be preached worldwide to the nations for the first time, as opposed to the confines of national Israel.
Is it therefore absolutely necessary to know the identity of the restrainer, as it is God "upholding all things"? Ultimately, it is God orchestrating ALL events that are recorded in the Bible. There is something else-another time! Sadly, many will find these things a big turn off, but they DO make you THINK!

May God continue to bless your studies.
15 April 2016 at 12:19

Treena Gisborn said...

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Colin for your thoughts. I do not think it is vital to know the identity of the restrainer because ultimately God is upholding all things as you point out. However, I am troubled by the teaching of Jacob Prasch that the Holy Spirit will be removed half way through the 70th week. It throws up a number of problems which I am unable to reconcile with the scriptures. God bless
15 April 2016 at 12:36

Irv said...

Irv said...

Thanks, Treena, for another well-thought-out and truly Bible-based discussion. After going through everything the Lord has laid on your heart I felt like I've just consumed a 10-course meal! Your diligence and faithful dissection of the Word are much needed and appreciated during these increasingly dark and foreboding days. His continuing blessings and protection on you and yours.
15 April 2016 at 21:59

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

A lot to read and dissect! One question, sure there'll be others. Is it correct for Jacob Prasch to say that 'the disciples were born again on the first day of the week'? Something doesn't sit right with me about it.
I'm not questioning that they were born again, but I think Prasch is wrong to assert that they were born again at that point, empowered, yes! God always had His hand on them, at the beginning their faith was weak, bit like new believers, first the blade, then the ear, and the full corn in the ear, if you get my meaning?
25 April 2016 at 03:00

Colin said...

colin said...

It is interesting that Jacob Prasch should bring reformed cessationism into the picture. As a man who heavily identifies himself with Pentecostalism, this should come as no surprise! Jacob should ask himself what it is in Pentecostalism that gives rise to the "craziness" that he refers to? Can any good fruit come off a bad tree? (Azusa Street).As you correctly say, cessationism is altogether a "different issue". Many believers today seem to distance themselves (very sadly) from the Reformation which WAS, and continues to be a mighty move of God, without which, we would still be in Rome's iron shackles. There is so MUCH truth in reformed theology, most notably in soteriology. The reformers, Luther, Calvin, Knox et al were all Roman Catholic priests that God brought out of very great darkness and superstition; if only believers alive today would understand that the Reformation is on-going, and that we must build upon it. Pre-millennialism is not a belief that is widely held among those in the reformed camp (we are in the great minority!). Many today in reformed Calvinistic circles (John MacArthur being a prominent one) have been poisoned by false pre-tribulation Dispensational doctrine.
With regard to the Holy Spirit being the restrainer that is removed (be He taken away or whether He ceases to restrain), how can this ever be the case? Are we to believe that men and women can be converted to Christ without the presence and work of the Holy Spirit? It is so very strange that many believers hold to the peculiar notion that God will convert the tribulation remnant in the last three and a half years of Daniel's seventieth week without giving the credit to the presence of His Holy Spirit? It is ONLY God who "granted repentance unto life" (Acts 11.18), be this by the pre-incarnate Christ (the Father) of the Old Testament, or when He was incarnate in the flesh, or through the agency of His Holy Spirit that now dwells in His true believers (the elect) today. Furthermore, can Michael the Archangel do anything without the Spirit of God? God is "upholding all things by the word of His Power", and this He will do throughout eternity.
Jacob Prasch, I believe, is a man used of God, sincere in his beliefs, but, nevertheless we are exhorted to "prove all things" and "try the spirits" (1 Thess 5.21, 1 John 4.1), let us NOT slavishly follow men, but adhere to the aforementioned Scripture's?
J.C.Ryle (reformed cessationist, of whom Jacob speaks well of) penned it well, when he said "Let no man be your theological master" (Christ excepted, I hope!).
Personally, I believe that the pre-wrath/intra-trib doctrine, call it what you will, is something of a misnomer, a non-teaching, if you like, because the Lord Jesus plainly declares it is "After the tribulation of those days....and they shall see the Son of man coming..." Matthew 24.29-30. God's wrath is not poured out on His elect. But having said all this, the pre-wrath folk can clearly see that the Bible teaches no such error as a pre-trib rapture, and for this we thank God in Christ.
Anonymous makes a good observation; the reason why I believe Jacob speaks thus is because he doesn't believe in predestination/election, or what some would call the dreaded TULIP!
Look forward to your analysis of JP's videos!
God bless you.
25 April 2016 at 06:30

Treena Gisborn said...

I am in the process of updating this post and integrating it with my first post on this subject. I shall leave it up while I am working on it. I have added the comments from the first post.

Treena Gisborn said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaMT2OeuMvE

JP links Matthew 18 to Daniel 9 and the 490 years in this recent teaching:

“Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times....." Matthew 18:21-22..... 70 x 7 =490

JP teaches here that the last seven years of history is when grace will end, the Antichrist will be manifested and wrath will begin. However the Antichrist will not be manifested until half way through the seven year period and wrath does not begin until the 7th seal of Revelation... Once again, I don't know how he equates this period with wrath and the end of grace.

It seems to me that the 70 x 7 is all about forgiveness and not the lack of it.

Monopode said...

I have never linked the two chapters but after reading them they both refer to repentance and forgiveness and the 490 connection has merit. Like you though I can't see how that equals the end of grace. I agree the tribulation starts in the middle. Israel have made their covenant with death and the Antichrist will seat himself in the temple betraying them and doing what Satan failed to do Isaiah 14:13. Then he will show his true face to Israel.

I'm just a little lamb and Prasch would crush me in a debate. I don't read Greek or Hebrew so I wouldn't know how to match him in knowledge but if people are saved in this period then the Holy Spirit must be here because that is the task God has set. John 16:8 And when he has come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness and of judgement.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you again Monopode. I am not JP's equal in knowledge and the original languages, but then again Darby was amazingly clever! Despite any academic disadvantage I may have in comparison with JP, I am confident that something is not right here. Judges 6:15 God bless x

Anonymous said...

This is James Jacob Prasch and Moriel's response to the above comments-Christian Greetings,

FIRST - This person is clearly failing to understand or distinguish between the tribulation spoken of by Jesus in the general sense in verse 9 of Matt. 24 (thelipsin) and the Great Tribulation (thelipsis megalo) of verse 21.  I have never equated the Great Tribulation with the full 7 lunar years. As we and others have repeatedly stated the 70th week of Daniel is a segmented period of continually worsening “thelipsis" divided into: 

1st - The beginning of birth pangs (called thelipsin); that is 'tribulation' in the Greek text - corresponding to the four horseman of Revelation chapter 6 or the first 4 seals.

2nd - The Great Tribulation (indicates a shift from the tribulation of verse 9 to the intensification of Greater Tribulation that is 'Megalo Thelipsis' in verse 21). This commences with the 5th seal when the antichrist tries to wipe out as many believers as he can and marks the shift from tribulation to Great Tribulation when God stages a cosmic maelstrom and terrestrial seismic explosion and prepares to unleash His wrath with the 6th seal but first raptures the faithful believers during the interlude before the 7th seal.

3rd - The Day of The Lord (day of His wrath) inaugurated with the 7th seal with the trumpet judgments, the 7 thunder judgments, and the 7 files or bowls of judgment, immediately followed by

4th - the transition into The Millennial Kingdom.

SECOND - What I have also consistently said is that the antichrist setting himself up in the temple commences 'The Time of Jacob's Trouble' for Israel & The Jews (Daniel 12:1) and indicates to the believers the fast approaching immanency of the Rapture (Matt. 24:25) when the Sign will appear (Matt. 24:29).

THIRD - As we have stated before which is emphatic in our books, the Gospel is the Gospel, yet it is variously described in differing characters and varied aspects when proclaimed. The Gospel of peace in Ephesians 6 & Isaiah 52 is not the way Gospel is proclaimed in the Book of Revelation. It is rather the Kingdom gospel as preached by John The Baptist "Repent - "Repent - the Kingdom is at hand" (Matt. 24: 14). No one EVER SAID it was a different way of salvation (if anyone says that they are accursed - anathema - Galatians 1: 8-9). But once The Holy Spirit no longer restrains, the era of grace is over. God reverts to His pre grace Old Testament motif of refocusing on Israel, Law, and judgment. JP calls it the Gospel of the Kingdom because that is precisely what Jesus calls it (Matt. 24: 14). Unlike kerygmatic preaching of the Gospel at other earlier points in history, the Gospel of the Kingdom heralds the message of salvation with an urgency that the return of Jesus and Kingdom of God is near (Luke 21: 31).

We are indeed called to exercise “macro-thumea" (great patience) in Timothy for young believers, weak believers etc. and I certainly desire to do so and want to do so. 

However, I very frankly find it quite difficult to find much patience for people who ascribe to me or to others things we do not believe or distort things I/we did say out of context. There are too many Christians (and not all of them women) who instead of prioritizing evangelism, missions, helping the persecuted church, etc. and genuinely preparing the way for the Return of Jesus in any true scriptural sense, instead spend ages wandering into the blogosphere imagining that they are somehow serving God in the process.    

In Christ,
Jacob Prasch
Moriel

Treena Gisborn said...

Dear Jacob,

Myself and others have been trying very hard to understand this teaching of yours. You have assumed that I do nothing else for the Lord, which is very strange since you do not know me.

I have quoted you verbatim and I have been as accurate as I possibly can. I am quite perplexed that you think I have quoted you out of context? I understand the tribulation to be "the great tribulation", and the first 3.5 years as "the beginning of birth pains", but you are now calling the whole seven years "a general tribulation" which is a shift isn't it? I have never heard you make this distinction before?

If you read the discussion above, I think you will find that I confirmed that you were teaching that there is only one gospel. I specifically listened to your teaching on "The Gospel of the Kingdom" in order to clarify this, and I have confirmed above that this is precisely what you are teaching.

You know, for someone who puts such emphasis on doctrine, I think it is quite strange that you are so disparaging about anyone in the "blogosphere" discussing the scriptures. Is this how you should respond to a geniune concern? I think you will have to pray for a little more patience with me because I still do not understand how the Holy Spirit can possibly be the restrainer - I must be a very weak believer indeed! Prior to Darby, no one ever taught that the restrainer was the Holy Spirit.. and then suddenly Darby arrived on the scene. I wonder, would you be teaching this if it were not for Darby? The concern that I have is that the church will think it is too late for unbelievers to receive salvation during the 70th week, which you now refer to as "the general tribulation".. I actually think this is a critical point, even in such a demeaning world as "the blogosphere".. oh to be so important..

Treena Gisborn said...

MATTHEW 24:5-10

5For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. (the four horsemen)

VERSE 9: “THEN they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then many will fall awaya and betray one another and hate one another.

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but the tribulation FOLLOWS the four horsemen I believe? The first four seals broken in Revelation 6:1-8 correspond to the birth pangs in Matthew 24. The tribulation (great tribulation) corresponds with the breaking of the fifth seal Revelation 6.

God bless

colin said...

Treena,
It is of vital importance to have "emphasis on doctrine" as you so rightly say; otherwise we will most surely fall prey to popery; and therefore be back under the snare of the Devil himself!
As students of God's Word/prophecy, we have identified that the final week of this dispensation IS the 70th week of Daniel 9.27. The "great tribulation", however, is in the LAST half of Daniel's 70th week, AFTER the event that takes place in Matthew 24.15. I know nothing in Scripture of any "general tribulation" apart from only what partakes generally!

Jacob is a man who slices and dices the Word with a very fine knife; nothing wrong with that, 2 Tim 2.15. Although I must confess that I find what he has written above to be very convoluted! I will read it again.

But, the bottom line is WHO IS THE RESTRAINER? How can it be the Holy Spirit? Can a man be saved without the Spirit of God convicting? From what I can glean from Jacob's writings above (despite what he says to the contrary), he would seem to be advocating some kind of semi-dispensational doctrine, with two modes of salvation? Have I got this right? Men and women in the OT dispensation, like the NT dispensation, were ONLY ever saved by God's free electing grace-period! God FIRST delivered Israel out of bondage from Israel, by His free grace, THEN gave them the law from Sinai as a code to live by, NOT to be saved by!

In my humble opinion, Jacob seems to have developed a very awkward doctrine, that I believe doesn't fit with Scripture.

Also, to 'attack' as it were people in the "blogosphere" (new one to me! My vocabulary has expanded today!) is very demeaning to us all, he should realise that we are real human beings (I hope!) behind these keyboards!

God bless your studies!

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you for your thoughts Colin. There is of course "general tribulation" as we all know... but Matthew 24 speaks specifically about the end of the age.... "when will these things be..." (verse 3). I meant to go a bit further with my previous comment. Verses 5-14 refer to various "birth pains" and "tribulation". Verse 15 is NOT unconnected... The very next word is THEREFORE - oún (a conjunction: therefore, now then, accordingly so - typically translated "therefore" which means, "By extension, here's how the dots connect". I am sure that my Greek is not up to JP's standard by any stretch, nevertheless I have studied Greek and I feel on safe ground here. Anyway here is the passage again from verse 9:

9"Then they will deliver you up to TRIBULATION and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then many will fall awaya and betray one another and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. THEREFORE (οὖν) when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel...... verse 21: For then there will be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

This is of course why I say that Jesus was referring to the same tribulation/great tribulation and that they are not unconnected events.

No one can be saved without the conviction of the Holy Spirit and without grace! Unless JP IS teaching two different modes of salvation during the 70th week, then I genjuinely cannot make any sense out of this teaching about the restrainer! I do believe that some people will be saved during the 70th week since the gospel will undoubtedly be preached.

I am offended by Jacob's comments - I actually think they were very foolish. I pray that I am equal to the challenge of responding with grace and forgiveness. I believe that for his own sake he should revisit this subject. I owe JP a debt of gratitude, he made so many things clear to me years ago when I was coming out of charismania.... I can hardly be angry with him for long. I shall be praying for him.

God bless

colin said...

I have a little knowledge of the original languages; especially the Greek in the NT eschatological verses. In fact I can recite the Shema in Hebrew!
Most are probably ignorant to the fact that the Puritans and fathers of the Reformation mastered the Hebrew and Greek languages-hence our Bible translations! At that time the English language wasn't fully developed. Having said this, Facebook, Twitter, texting etc, are now helping to destroy the English language.

We shouldn't be dazzled because of any man's mastery of the Hebrew and Greek. As you are no doubt aware there are a great many scholars out there who do command such a knowledge, who are not even believers, and even among those that are; many have been blinded by Dispensationalism, and many other errors beside!

I don't say that it isn't good to have some understanding of the original languages, but even then, there are certain words that the best language scholars cannot agree among themselves as to the exact meaning, therefore context is everything, plus comparing Scripture with Scripture to shine light on these 'ambiguous' words.

Therefore, it is not necessary to have a perfect understanding of the original languages to have correct Bible theology. The KJV AV/RV which I use is therefore sufficient. "Let no man be your theological master" J.C.Ryle.

Yes, Jacob's reply was certainly lacking in grace.
May we all grow in grace and truth.
God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

I agree Colin... Whilst biblical languages can be of value, there are many scholars who have abused their gifts and knowledge to confuse their followers... Darby for instance! When pride gets in the way, all is lost. I am glad I have a basic grasp, but more importantly, it is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, who guides us into all the truth (John 16:13). Praise God.

Anonymous said...

Blessings in Him who saved us,

This will have to be my final comment regarding something on Treena's blog that was brought to my attention by a brother asking me to comment which I was initially not interested in doing. 

I comment therefore for the final time only because I know her and I believe she intends well. It has already consumed too much time, and she gives platform to individuals (e.g. "Colin" whom I do not believe I know) who ascribes things to me that I simply do not believe. I never said that the Holy Spirit, being the restrainer, means He is taken from the hearts of God's people. He simply ceases to function as He has since Pentecost in fulfillment of John chapter 16. He will no longer restrain or convict the world etc. I never stated God's Spirit will not deal with individuals. Whether Colin is being just plain dishonest, misrepresenting our expressed position, or is ignorant of that of which he speaks yet speaks anyway, I frankly do not know.  Treena also gave voice to someone who attempted to say that I believe in more than one definition of the Gospel, which most certainly never did. I quite honestly do not hold blog sites like this in any constructive regard. 

What I have said is that once the faithful church is removed God turns His attention back to dealing with Israel & the Jews in their unbelief. His Spirit will again be outpoured on Israel (Zechariah 12:10) allowing them to come to faith in Jesus during the crises of Jacob's Trouble. 

Neither Colin nor Treena quote me accurately but more importantly, Sister Treena does not correctly handle God's Word in this regard. As always, it is TEXT CONTEXT CO TEXT. She does not seem particularly too careful about context, but she is frankly an unmitigated disaster in the area of co-text. 

Anonymous said...

Therefore, I will endeavour to explain this one final time:

Treena maintains that the tribulation is only the Great Tribulation and the first half of the last 7 years of the beginning of birth pangs is not scripturally referred to as the tribulation. Who is right -
Treena or Jesus?

Let us find out.

As translated by The New Testament Greek, Jesus clearly and directly refers to the
":Beginning of Birth pangs" as "Thelipsis" / TRIBULATION in John 16:21. If she had only read John chapter 16 from where both of these issues of the Holy Spirit's current function and the nature of the birth pangs are addressed and explained by Jesus , she would know that for herself.,

As I tried to explain to her unsuccessfully, in verse 9 of Matthew 24 Jesus shifts from an already existing tribulation to the Great Tribulation (Theslipsis Macro) in verse 21 when Satan tries to kill us all via agency of anti christ etc.


In John 16: 33, Jesus refers to 'tribulation' in the general sense used many times in scripture for believers in all ages. We have "tribulation" in the world.

However in this same John chapter 16 in verses 20-22, Jesus speaks of His Second Coming as being proceeded by the Birth Pangs seen in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and as is illustrated in the vision of the woman in travail in Revelation chapter 12

Treena seems to be denying that the Beginning of Birth Pangs (corresponding to the four horseman of the Apocalypse) followed by the shift to Great Tribulation when the believers are horribly persecuted (akin to what happened to the Jews in the holocaust) during the first half of the 7 years can be called "Tribulation". She seems to contend that tribulation and Great Tribulation are the same and only takes place during the second half of the final 7 years.

With respect, Jesus disagrees with her, and therefore so do I.

In John 16: 20-22 speaking of these Birth Pangs preceding His return Jesus calls them (as translated in every Greek manuscript and codex we have) "THELIPSIS" (John 16: 22)

"But When She Gives Birth She No Longer Remembers The "TRIBULATION" (THELIPSIS)."


The term "thelipsis" moreover is applied here as an obstetric term for very good reason. Its Greek etymology is not simply "pressure" but "Constriction" as in contractions of maternal labour.

Treena Gisborn said...

You are much more dangerous than I originally thought Jacob Prasch! I always believed your heart to be right, but this scripture twisting makes me very suspicious.

The PRIMARY MEANING of John 16 is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the birth of the church. The disciples would "weep and lament" - they would be "sorrowful", but their sorrow would turn to joy (verse 20). ".....you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you" (22) Jesus refers to his post-resurrection appearances and the permanent presence of the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, as a result of his departure (cf. 14:17). The disciples DID NOT experience persecution during the time that they were weeping/lamenting/sorrowful. If THE PRIMARY MEANING does not speak of tribulation, why should any SECONDARY MEANING? Most translators have "anguish" (THELIPSIS v21)and not tribulation or persecution. If you really want to insist upon a seven year tribulation along with the pre-tribbers, then go right ahead - who am I to stop you? How does any of this prove that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer by the way? Even your own people at Moriel are unable to explain this convoluted teaching of yours.

You say that this is your final response... well I sincerely hope so. In any event I would not publish anything so insulting towards me again. The only reason I shall leave it up is so that people will see your behaviour as a reviler for themselves (1 Corinthains 5:11). You have written off and probably alienated many people with genuine ministries who write blogs. I am sure that I do not seek your approval for doing something that I believe the Lord has led me to do!

colin said...

I am somewhat staggered by Jacob saying "I do not hold blog sites like this in any constructive regard". Why ever not? That is Roman Catholic thinking as Spurgeon would have said! Are not the little people allowed to discuss the theology of God's written word? The popes kept the Bible from the common people in case they would misuse it!
Granted; there is much rubbish being pedalled on "blog sites like this", but so is there much rubbish being taught in the churches!

But, lets get down to the subject matter. It has always (and still is) been my understanding that THE tribulation, the great tribulation, time of Jacob's trouble is a period of three and one half years, 1260 days or times, time, and half a time, 42 months. If the first 42 months of Daniel's 70th week was part of the great tribulation that the Bible teaches, why then does Paul say "For when they are saying peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them..." 1 Thess 5.3/Luke 21.34? The Antichrist shows his true colours "in the midst of the week" Daniel 9.27. At this point the two witnesses shall "prophesy a thousand two hundred and three score days" Rev 11.3, the same period of 42 months that Antichrist will be doing his worst in Rev 13.5. At this time Michael will "stand up" for Israel, Dan 12.1.

It would appear to me that the Bible teaches that the first three and a half years of Daniel's 70th week is a period of relative calm and peace! and not tribulation?

God's people have ALWAYS suffered tribulation/affliction, in the world, the Saviour said they would, "In the world ye shall have tribulation" John 16.33.

There is an on-going 'general tribulation', but the Bible in my humble opinion teaches that THE great tribulation specifically is AFTER "the midst of the week".

Can people be convicted of sin, wrath and the judgment by hearing the "everlasting gospel", without the power of the Holy Spirit?

I believe not! Simple soul that I am.

God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

Well Colin, after this I do not hold JP in any constructive regard. I agree with all your points. God bless

colin said...

Certainly your exposition of John 16.21-22 makes MUCH more Scriptural sense than J.P's, in fact, I believe it agrees entirely with Scripture. The ultimate verse (33) in THAT chapter says "In the world ye shall have tribulation", so verses 21-22 were leading up to this. Tribulation, anguish, affliction, persecution has always been the Christian's lot (no doubt some more than others).

This is what happens when you try to force Scripture to teach a false theology; as Darby did: Dispensational theologians have forever been (since about 1830) trying to force the Bible to teach their doctrine.

I have tried my best to understand the mechanics of the pre-wrath/intraseal rapture, and have failed miserably. When you resort to twisting the Scriptures, you are NOT on safe ground. If you can't make YOUR theology fit with the Bible, then ABANDON it!

I thank God in Christ for "blog sites like this".

I remain a historic post-tribulational, pre-millennialist!

God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you so much Colin. God bless

Treena Gisborn said...

The word thlipsis appears a total of 45 times in the NT.

A few examples of thlipsis:

There will be tribulation (thlipsis) and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, (Romans 2:5-9)

Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation (thlipsin), unless they repent of her works, (Revelation 2:22)

…..since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction (thlipsin) those who afflict (thlibousin) you, (2 Thessalonians 1:6)

(thlíbō is the root of thlipsin)

When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish ( thlipseōs) or joy that a human being has been born into the world. (John 16:21)

Clearly the context defines the meaning of thlipsis and it does not always apply to the persecution of believers. Beware of those who twist the scriptures to suite their own interpretation. The context of John 16:21 is not indicative of persecution as already explained in my previous comment.

Larry Marvin said...

I guess the YouTube, TV, & Video form of Christian media teaching/commentary 'over rides' the 'Blogesphere' media. ......... Sad to read such a parting shot from Jacob Prasch. But as the LORD Jesus commanded, I will obey. I forgive you JP. Try not to repeat it.

Treena Gisborn said...

God bless you Larry.

M'Kayla Kelly said...

My dear sister in Christ, you are not alone in Jacob's onslaughts. Yours seemed to come just after mine. He has obviously forgot the direction in scripture that teachers are supposed to be patient, that we are to love, to be longsuffering, etc. We should be able to discuss things without the belittling. Jacob has forgotten the masses who have prayed for him to be well. It is a shame and I will not bear up under his abuses, either. It is my hope to reach those who think they need to.

Blessings and peace in our Lord and Savior.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you M'Kayla. I just read your recent post earlier tonight after someone sent me the link: An Encounter With a Madman..or two.. https://mkayla.wordpress.com/

I am grieved that you have been belittled and treated in such a disgraceful way.
1 Corinthians 13 comes to mind.

God bless you my dear sister in Christ x

colin said...

A few thoughts.
Without exception EVERY Christian believer is entitled to ask questions: And to KEEP on asking, KNOCK at the door until it opens! Be like the widow woman in Luke 18 who wearied the unjust judge!
Many believers disagree with much, there are often multiple interpretations on the same verses. It is very sad that some would appear to put themselves on a parapet to a point that whatever they teach cannot be questioned.
I have visited many blog sites over recent years and asked, questioned, and debated a great many biblical topics. And whatever love, knowledge or grace I now possess (or lack of it!) I believe is because of "blog sites like this" to quote JP/DI again!
I do hold them in "constructive regard"! Thank God for the "Blogosphere"-I like that word!

"Iron sharpeneth iron" Proverbs 27.17.

God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

I will try to respond biblically to JP's argument about a seven year tribulation. I am very aware that this could turn into a very nasty personal dispute which would be very harmful for everyone and a great victory for Satan.

JP: "However in this same John chapter 16 in verses 20-22, Jesus speaks of His Second Coming as being proceeded by the Birth Pangs seen in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and as is illustrated in the vision of the woman in travail in Revelation chapter 12."

Mark 13 confirms the sequence of events in Matthew 24 i.e.tribulation follows the birth pains.

Revelation 12: The woman (Israel) will be divinely protected after the midweek abomination of desolation and during the subsequent reign of the Antichrist. (Revelation 12:16) AFTER THAT HAPPENS, the Antichrist turns his attention towards believers: "THEN the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea." (Revelation 12:17)

Once again, no specific "tribulation" is mentioned prior to the mid point of the 70th week.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Treena Gisborn said...

You know Anonymous, once someone starts going off in one area, then it quickly spreads to other areas. First we have the Restrainer problem, and now the elusive seven year tribulation problem - and in the process dishonesty comes into play. JP is playing a very dangerous game I fear. Best to put it right with the Lord quickly JP before it progresses. God bless.

Rob Thomas said...

Hi Treena!

I've always held Jacob Prasch in very high regard, and have listened to many hours of his teaching. But I've had a niggling worry about him, which reading his comments here has given a sad substance to. My unease has been that his undoubted intellectual abilities and command of the original Biblical languages, coupled with his substantial first-hand experience of both Judaism and counterfeit Christianity, has resulted in a lamentable straying into the area of spiritual pride. Fact is, no-one has a monopoly of knowledge and understanding, and if we should ever think that our personal perception of spiritual matters is that much more superior to another Christian's perception, we become so much in danger of forsaking the gentle fruits of the Spirit and adopting an attitude of unbecoming arrogance with a haughty dismissal of anyone deemed to have a lesser understanding.

I always marveled at how Solomon, with all his incredible God-given wisdom, could have ended up engaging in such abject folly as he did. I can only conclude that he came to believe that he was so wise that he simply could not be foolish; his strength became his weakness. I sincerely hope and pray that Jacob will check himself before he treads any further along such a similarly delusory and destructive path.

Like you, of course, I'm only a blogger, the type of lowly person who he seems to think does not warrant the time of day, so I guess that even in the unlikely event that he should read this, he will dismiss it out of hand. I don't get at all why he's so determinedly alienating people who have a genuine desire to work for the Lord; does he not make very great use of the internet himself to put his own views and opinions across? I am offended for you, sister, and also myself feel offended by a man who I've had the greatest respect for; I'm greatly saddened and disturbed by his most ungracious responses.

As it is written, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Cor. 13:12) And this is every bit as true of Jacob Prasch as it is of us all. None of us will ever "know it all" in this life. Period. Pride needs to submit to humility; contempt needs to cede to grace; unworthy vessels that we are, we need to humbly help each other to healthily grow and bear fruit that is fitting for the Kingdom. The Remnant is small enough as it is; the last thing we want is a completely unwarranted civil war among ourselves!

Best wishes in Him,
Rob.

Treena Gisborn said...

Rob I have been thinking about you a lot over the last few days in relation to JP's comments. You are the only man in Wales who is standing against false doctrine, does JP expect you to stop doing this valuable work? I believe that the Lord endorses you 100%, and so do I by the way. I agree with you that pride is the issue here (Proverbs 16:18). Personal attacks and attempts to discredit those who have genuine questions is not the way to go. I have always believed that I have the gift of "discernment of spirits", but unfortunately it does not go down very well with the churches! I wonder why? I believe that you have the same or similar gifting Rob. Do not be discouraged.

JP has just posted this on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81GR4H1sHdU

Funnily enough JP posted an article of mine on his Moriel site about Revelation TV a year or so ago. There was no question about my blog being invalid then!

God bless

Cherie c. said...

With all due respect, Treena, Jacob never said that birth pangs are 3.5 years. The whole issue with the Pre, Post and Mid Tribulation dispute is how long the Tribulation is and how it is determined. Jacob has said that the Tribulation is the 3.5 years Satan reigns in Anti-Christ, which is a mirror of the years Jesus was in ministry. I tend to side with the Word of God, that the Rapture is indeed described in Scripture, but in no way says it is before the Tribulation. God's Wrath is not the Tribulation, and as we see in the Genesis account of Lot, he was in tribulation, being vex by the people of the city in which he lived as well as the response from his son-inlaws when he warned them.

I do not believe Jacob himself wrote the comment, as in one sentence he uses himself in the third person, which I have never seen Jacob do as of yet, and if this is the case, that is an issue in and of itself, letting others respond for him and letting others take on things that they shouldn't when people reach out to him. It is very disturbing Jacob preaches about those in leadership saying and acting like, "touch not my anointed" and then seems, I SAID SEEMS, to do likewise.

I have never heard Jacob say the Tribulation is seven years in length. That is not the case. I found it very easy to understand his position and his teaching, when I listen to his older teachings. The recent teachings are not very good as they spend a lot of time calling out those who oppose his views, not that that is a bad thing alone, but he needs to teach, not call out those who are in error where we already know they are. Sometimes I believe, he does not get good counsel from those in his camp.

I pray that you can see what I am saying, as what he has taught is backed by Scripture, but his insistence on being so academic, is what causes confusion and makes it tough to understand. Jacob has two other teachings that are very seriously in error, and it is heartbreaking to see such a change as he has not said before what he has recently taught (last few years and this year). And if Jacob can only respond out of a offended heart, perhaps we should pray for a brother who, by his comments about the change in Martin Luther, may be happening to him, to some degree.

There is a shaking going on that no one wants to address, but I am not afraid to address before it gets too far. I pray that someone will listen. I am not the only one who has noticed a change and I spend time in pray asking God's guidance on this matter.

Also, be wary of people and groups calling themselves the Remnant or Remnant Ecclesia, only God knows who the Remnant is, and people like this only exclude those the feel are not in the group or qualify for the group based on gossip. Shalom

your sister in Christ Jesus,
Cherie c.

Treena Gisborn said...

JP has just released yet another video on this subject which I am listening to now. It is called: THE GREAT RESTRAINER AND 7 YEAR TRIBULATION-MORIEL TV PRESENTS-JAMES JACOB PRASCH- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYEzOBLIO90

I see that he now does translate tribulation as "anguish" in John 16:21... he did not do so previously.

JP: "John chapter 16 in verses 20-22, Jesus speaks of His Second Coming as being proceeded by the Birth Pangs seen in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and as is illustrated in the vision of the woman in travail in Revelation chapter 12."

John 16:20-22 is the birth of the church, Jesus is NOT speaking of his second coming or the end times in John 16:16-24.... My point is that the primary meaning does not have PERSECUTION as I have exlained above.

Our anonymous writer is either JP himself or his representative... he continues in a similar vein to his first comment and is equally derogatory. In any event, I do believe that these are JP's own words... he may contradict this if he wishes, but I shall take it to be so.

JP refers above to: ".....the first half of the last 7 years of the beginning of birth pangs" .... three and a half years Cherie.

I am very tired now. I will listen fully to the latest version over the week end and give it some more thought and prayer.

God bless

Treena Gisborn said...

Joe Schimmel makes a very good case for Michael the Archangel as the Restrainer. Like Alan Kurschner, Joe is very wise in not being dogmatic. I really do recommend this teaching for those being browbeaten by Jacob Prasch into accepting his convoluted and confusing position for the Holy Spirit which he teaches dogmatically. The link is below. God bless.

m/series/blessed-hope-chapel/the-revelation-series-the-amazing-mission-of-the-archangel-michael

jeffo365 said...

If anything we are predestined to hell and it's Christ Jesus who sets us free through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. God bless all

Monopode said...

I seem to have caused a ruckus. This certainly wasn't my intention. I did not attempt to say Prasch believed in more than one definition of the gospel but I was concerned when I heard him say that at this time the gospel as we know it will not be preached but rather the gospel of the kingdom. Treena pointed out that this wasn't the case and I was relieved to hear it. However, I think his wording was unwise and confusing. Perhaps he should spend as much time considering English as he does the biblical languages.

I may be a weak believer and definitely no scholar but I am a member of the body of Christ and entitled to pick apart any man's teaching. In biblical matters I do sometimes feel like a child listening to the grown ups talk despite being an adult with a family and responsibilities. Weak and none too bright I am but I do know the Scriptures do not expicitly identify the restrainer and so can say with confidence that no teacher should declare that they KNOW with such conviction. It is only an opinion.

God gave us apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. He didn't give us lecturers.

And there is nothing wrong with believers debating and swapping ideas through blogs and websites. A lot of us are isolated because of the apostasy.

Treena Gisborn said...

Jacob Prasch has caused his own ruckus Monopode! Apart from that, I fully agree with all your points. I think that you and I both are "weak believers" in JP eyes... God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble (James 4:6). Thank God that He is with us lesser mortals .... God bless you

colin said...

I too agree with Monopode. He puts his point across very well!
It is so good that many 'ordinary' believers (of which I am one) can say with the writer to the Hebrews "And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, And every man his brother, saying Know the Lord: For all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. Hebrews 8.11.
Thank God in Christ for His Holy Spirit.

Deborah (Discerning the World) said...

As much as I do not agree with the this websites doctrine, I totally DISAGREE with the way Prash has attacked the author of this site. But it’s normal and Treena you must get used to it if you want to continue exposing Jacob Prasch. See here: https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/12/14/discerning-the-world-defence-from-the-attacks-of-jacob-prasch-and-moriel-ministries/

Jacob Prash has been attacking me for nearly 3 years now and now he is attacking Tom Lessing too. He says I am possessed and mentally insane because I suffer from an auto-immune disease called Systemic Lupus. Thank goodness Jacob is not a Doctor can you imagine... everyone in his care would be classed as possessed and insane if you disagreed with him. When Prash does not have answers to your questions out come the insults, and below the belt they are.

But you know what? The more he insults you and the more people read his vile insults the more people open their eyes and will step back from him, put on their running shoes and run away from him. The ones that stay with him, well they have a same personality he does: mean and nasty.

It will be ok Treena, they are fortunately just words. When he comes wielding a machette, then I would say you have a problem LOL

Treena Gisborn said...

To heap personal insults and to attempt to belittle others within the Body of Christ is unworthy behaviour of any Christian, let alone a leader/teacher. We should be particularly careful about damaging the Body of Christ and grieving the Holy Spirit:

"Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:29-32 cf.Colossians 3:8)

The Bible tells us not to associate with verbal abusers (revilers) bearing the nam of "brother" (1 Corinthians 5:11) It appears that there is a very ugly side to JP and Moriel - JP is a habitual reviler... the trickle of those complaining about his verbal abuse has grown into a positive stream. Moriel is not a nice "ministry".

I have actually proved scripturally that the tribulation is NOT SEVEN YEARS. As for JP's restrainer concoction - it is unsustainable and presumptuous to teach it as doctrine. JP must find it very humiliating to be exposed... perhaps this explains his appalling behaviour in calling my exposition "nonsense" etc. I suggest that his verbal abuse is a smoke screen/defence mechanism to cover his scripture twisting.

We all have a choice... if we do not turn away from error, then I believe that God will allow us to fall into greater error - a little yeast. If we do not love the truth or respond to correction then there are serious consequences.

Teachers have a greater responsibility in this area and will be judged more strictly (James 3:1)

If we judge ourselves, we will not be judged by the Lord (1 Corinthians 11:31-32).

I have a sense that if JP does not put this matter right then the Lord will deal with him. I have had some thoughts about Pharoah hardening his own heart.(Exodus 8) JP is playing with fire!

Thank you Deborah. God bless.