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Sunday, 26 March 2017

IS THE STAR OF DAVID A LEGITIMATE SYMBOL FOR ISRAEL?

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! (Isaiah 14:12)


Emblem of the State of Israel

The Emblem of the State of Israel (Hebrew: סמל מדינת ישראל‎, translated Semel Medinat Yisra'el‎, depicts a menorah surrounded by an olive branch on each side, and the writing "ישראל" (Hebrew for Israel) below it.[1] Since ancient times, the menorah has gained recognition as the most enduring and iconic Jewish symbol. The menorah was chosen as the Emblem of the State of Israel in 1948. This particular depiction may be based on the vision of the Zechariah, where he describes seeing a solid gold seven branched lampstand flanked by two olive trees, one on each side. (Zechariah 4:1-14). The Torah states that God Himself gave the instructions for the precise design and construction of the menorah directly to Moses. The golden lampstand was a foreshadowing of Jesus Christ, the future Messiah. The lampstand symbology carries right through from Moses to the vision of Zechariah, to the seven lampstands in Revelation 1:20.

“You shall make a lampstand of pure gold. The lampstand shall be made of hammered work: its base, its stem, its cups, its calyxes, and its flowers shall be of one piece with it. And there shall be six branches going out of its sides, three branches of the lampstand out of one side of it and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side of it; three cups made like almond blossoms, each with calyx and flower, on one branch, and three cups made like almond blossoms, each with calyx and flower, on the other branch—so for the six branches going out of the lampstand. And on the lampstand itself there shall be four cups mgade like almond blossoms, with their calyxes and flowers, and a calyx of one piece with it under each pair of the six branches going out from the lampstand. Their calyxes and their branches shall be of one piece with it, the whole of it a single piece of hammered work of pure gold. You shall make seven lamps for it. And the lamps shall be set up so as to give light on the space in front of it. Its tongs and their trays shall be of pure gold. It shall be made, with all these utensils, out of a talente of pure gold. And see that you make them after the pattern for them, which is being shown you on the mountain. (Exodus 25:31-40).

Now the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to Aaron and say to him, When you set up the lamps, the seven lamps shall give light in front of the lampstand.” And Aaron did so: he set up its lamps in front of the lampstand, as the Lord commanded Moses. And this was the workmanship of the lampstand, hammered work of gold. From its base to its flowers, it was hammered work; according to the pattern that the Lord had shown Moses, so he made the lampstand. (Numbers 8:1-4).

The menorah was an obvious choice as the official symbol for Israel in 1948, and yet somehow! the flag of Zionism which displays the so called Shield of David took precedence over it. In complete contrast with the menorah, Māḡēn Dāwīḏ, David's shield aka the Star of David was never a uniquely Jewish symbol until relatively recently. The word magen can be found sixty three times in the Old Testament and its short definition is shield.[2] However, there is no mention of David's shield in the scriptures, or for that matter in early rabbinic literature. The symbol is so rare in early Jewish literature and artwork that art dealers suspect forgery if they find the symbol in early Jewish works.[3]

M. Hirsch Goldberg in his book The Jewish Connection states: "The Star of David is not of Jewish origin - and the ancient Israelites never used it as their religious symbol" (they used the Menorah or Seven Candlestick). [4]

In reality the hexagram star is the star of rephaim/repham/remphan and has particular evil connotations in both the Old and the New Testaments. Remphan has links with Moloch, a Canaanite god associated with child sacrifice. Stephen condemned the practices associated with "Moloch and the star of your god Rephan" shortly before he was stoned (Acts 7:43; Amos 5:26). This particular star god is known both as Rephan and Kalwan (Hebrew Chiun). Kewan is probably the Old Babylonian Kayawanu for the planet Saturn. Stars are often associated with, and named after, specific pagan gods, for instance Aphrodite is Venus, Zeus is Jupiter etc. The "host of heaven" presented a particular temptation for the ancient Israelites towards false worship (1 Kings 21:3; 2 Kings 21:1). The Israelites were censured for false worship of the sun god Adrammelech (2 Kings 17:31) and Amon (Jeremiah 46:25); the moon goddess Anammelech and Diana/Artemis (Acts 19:24-35); and Merodach/Marduk (Mars?) (Jeremiah 50:2). Stars are sometimes illustrative of angels and fallen angels in the scriptures. (Job 38:7; Revelation 1:20; Revelation 12:4). John erroneously fell down to worship at the feet of an angel (Revelation 22:8). Satan himself, the "shining one" translated "star of the morning", masquerades as an angel of light. (Isaiah 14:12; 2 Corinthians 11:14) in the place of Jesus Christ, the bright morning star. (Revelation 22:16). The Masonic Dictionary provides  convincing evidence that the "star of Remphan" refers to the Seal of Solomon:

".....we can infer that this star of Remphan may well be the Seal of Solomon. In Qabbalistical magical texts attributed -- either rightly or wrongly -- to King Solomon, we see that both of these symbols, the pentagram and hexagram, when incased in a circle, are used to conjure spirits and called, respectively, the 'Pentacle of Solomon' or the 'Hexagram of Solomon'."  [5]

"The Seal of Solomon or the Shield of David, for under both names the same thing was denoted, is a hexagonal figure consisting of two interlaced triangles, thus forming the outlines of six-pointed star. Upon it was inscribed one of the sacred names of God, from which inscription it was opposed principally to derive its talismanic powers." [6]

Remphan was probably Saturn (Satan), 
the supreme god of the Chaldeans. Saturn was important to the religion of Mithra and also the Druids. Osiris, Egyptian god of the afterlife and lord of the dead is also represented by Saturn. The horned deity, the “great god Pan” represented Saturn in ancient paganism. This half-man half-goat creature is considered the ancestor of our modern depictions of Satan.

Manley P. Hall: “The pipes of Pan signify the natural harmony of the spheres, and the god himself is a symbol of Saturn because this planet is enthroned in Capricorn, whose emblem is a goat.” [7]

There are also occult links between Chium/Saturn and the mark of Cain. According to Blavatsky: “The god of time was Chium in Egypt, or Saturn...and Chium is the same as Cain.” [8]

Interestingly, Rome was originally known as Saturnia, the City of Saturn. The Roman Catholic church retains much of the Saturn worship in its ritual. Black cubes and monoliths also play a part in Saturn’s dark symbolism. The supreme deity Ēl or Il (Father of Heaven / Saturn) is the husband of the goddess Asherah and was represented by a black cube according to the clay tablets of Ugarit.

Masonic author John Sebastian Marlow Ward associated Saturn with Satan:
“Saturn is the opposite to Jupiter; his symbol is the cross above the sign of Luna. He is the Satan, the Tempter, or rather the Tester. His function is to chastise and tame the unruly passions in the primitive man.”  [9]

There is a direct link between Rephaim and evil spirits in the book of I Enoch. The Rephaim were the offspring of the "watchers" or fallen angels, the giants, who were condemned to become evil spirits. (Enoch 15:8-9 cf. Daniel 4:13, 17. 23). I think that we must take the Book of I Enoch seriously since it is identified as prophecy by Jude, the Lord's half brother and one of the twelve apostles. (Jude 1:14 cf.  Jude1:6). Og king of Bashan appears to be the last remaining of the Rephaim, Moses having previously struck and dispossessed them. (Joshua 12:4, 13:12 Deuteronomy 3:11). The Rephaim were variously known also by other names: Emim, Gibborim, Zamzummim, Anakim and Avim. (Deuteronomy 2:10-23). Evidence for the existence of antediluvian/postdiluvan giants is compelling. Not only do giants appear as the Nephilim in the scriptures (Genesis 6:4; Numbers 13:33), in the Book of I Enoch and other extra-biblical material, references to giants (Greek Gigantes) appear in the ubiquitous mythology and legends of many cultures.

Demonic associations with the hexagram star can easily be brought up to date. The hexagram is a very powerful witchcraft symbol and is used to conjure evil spirits (the Rephaim) when it is drawn inside a circle. Aleister Crowley devised the unicursal hexagram, which he claimed further codified the symbolism contained within the hexagram, the rosy cross, and the ankh. In fact, Crowley gave prominence to the hexagram and described it as "the lesser ritual of the pentagram". Thelemapedia  makes a distinct connection between the hexagram and the planets Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sol, Venus, Mercury and Luna.[10] Blavatsky noted the significance of the theosophic hexagram, and Hitler, who was a member of the Satanist Thule Society, used this curse symbol to mark the Jews during the holocaust.

The Star or Shield of David became an official symbol of Judaism after it was chosen to represent the First Zionist Congress in 1897 by secular Jew, Theodore Herzl. Herzl was the President of World Zionism and the founder of the First Zionist Congress, the political movement created to ensure a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Edmond de Rothschild, the real power behind Zionism, worked closely with both Theodore Herzl and his successor, Chaim Weizmann. Rothschild told Weizmann: "Without me Zionism would not have succeeded...."  Hence, the “Rothschild Hexagram” was adopted as the "flag of Zion" in 1948. When the Flag of Israel was unveiled, it met with tremendous opposition from many Jews who were aware of its historical connection with the mystery religions as the symbol of Moloch:

".....the symbol continued to be controversial for many years afterward. When the modern state of Israel was founded, there was much debate over whether this symbol should be used on the flag." [11] 

Opposition to the hexagram star symbol necessitated significant revisionist propaganda in order to transform it into an acceptable Jewish symbol. The saying: "If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it" is attributed to Joseph Goebbels. The often repeated revised explanation for the hexagram star is as follows:

"The two blue stripes represent a tallit or prayer shawl, and both sides of the split Red Sea that the Hebrews walked through as written in the Book of Exodus." 

"The Star of David also represents the Jewish identity of Israel, as well as the culture and history of the Israeli people."  [12]

In reality, the star of Remphan morphed into the occult Seal of Solomon and the Rothschild Hexagram aka the Illuminati Hexagram. I view Magen David as a satanic facade in order to obscure the true demonic history of the Star of Remphan. Even the designation of the shield of David is a misnomer. With no scriptural basis and all the evidence of evil and death attending this symbol prior to the 19th century, the hexagram is surely not God's choice for the symbol of Israel. This symbol does remind me of the propensity for the ancient Israelites to worship the true God and other gods concurrently. We therefore have the usurper, the so called star or shield of David, competing with the menorah for precedence.

The Rothchilds are believed to own and control 80% of the state of Israel and are one of the wealthiest families on earth. The red background of the Rothschild family shield is identical to that found on the heraldic arms of the Byzantine emperors and the Vatican. The history of the Rothschild dynasty is key to the implementation of the star of David as the premier Israeli symbol. Ashkenazi Jew, Mayer Amshel Bauer (born 1744), started his career at the Oppenheim banking-house in Hanover and rose through the ranks to become a junior partner. The Oppenheimers were early members of the Bavarian Illuminati, and it appears that this was the catalyst that enabled Baur to ingratiate himself with the Luciferian elite. Baur possessed immense intellectual ability and was a shrewd businessman. Around the year 1760 Baur began doing business with the court of Hanau, aided by his acquaintance with General von Estorff. In 1763 Baur returned to Frankfurt having acquired his father's business. It was at this time that he changed his name to Mayer Amschel Rothschild (red shield) and adopted the symbol of the hexagram.[13]

"Give me control over a nation's currency, then it does not interest me who makes the laws." Mayer Amschel Rothschild
    
The history of the hexagram star is compelling, but in addition, the six-sided star numerically equals 666 (6 points, 6 triangles, 6-sided hexagon). Because this symbol is comprised of a six within a six within a six ( 6 points, 6 triangles, 6 sides of the inner hexagon), some speculate that it is the mark of the beast. (Revelation 13:18).

Abstain from all appearance of evil. (1 Thessalonians 5:22 KJV)

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Peter 2:1).

 


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Israel
[4] http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=47474&forum=34
[7] Manly P. Hall, Secret Teachings of All Ages
[8] Blavatsky, The Secret Doctrine (897:390)
[9] J.S.M. Ward, Freemasonry and the Ancient Gods
[11] https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-star-of-david

21 comments:

colin said...

I certainly believe that the "Star of David" so-called has NO biblical foundation whatsoever. It is not too difficult (as you have clearly shown) to see that this is indeed the case.

In the Pentateuch do we not read that the 'candlestick', or rather the menorah, along with the olive branches and other such similar biblical symbolism (Lion of Judah, ships of Zebulun,hind of Naphtali etc), that we find recorded in Jacob's dying blessings to his sons in the chapter 49 of the book of Genesis, are clear biblical depictions? Should not what is recorded in the Scripture of truth be the basis for an emblematic flag for the head of the nations? You would think so! And at first, this was the case when the "standards" or "ensigns" were displayed outside the respective tribal camps as recorded in Numbers 1.52, 2.2, 2.3, 2.10 etc.

As for the Nephilim; without a doubt, I believe they were most certainly NOT the result of fallen angels and "daughters of men" coming together. How would the offspring of such a liaison stand in relation to Christ as Saviour? Would they be men, semi-men, semi angels or what? Where are they now? How could they be capable of salvation by Christ? How can they believe on Him who took not on Him the nature of angels, but took on Him the seed of Abraham??

God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

There is much more I could have said about the star of David Colin but space did not permit.

I have been doing a bit more research into the Nephilim, I already had I Enoch and now have the Book of Giants. These were illicit hybrid creatures, half angelic half human that could not easily procreate. They could not be saved and were condemned by God to be evil spirits on the earth. There is a very big cover up by the Vatican, the Smithsonian etc. I have been thinking a lot about this recently.. it is very relevant to the end times "just as it was in the days of Noah.."

Sardinia has much evidence that has not been destroyed yet and also Peru.
Timothy Alberino is worth watching on youtube. God bless.

https://www.sott.net/article/281093-The-truth-about-giant-skeletons-in-American-Indian-mounds-and-the-Smithsonian-cover-up
http://guardianlv.com/2014/02/giant-human-skeletons-discovered-in-wisconsin/

colin said...

I look forward to the conclusion of your continued research.
I have no difficulty with the "Star of David"; why would a believing nation have such a symbol? The answer lies in the fact that Israel as a nation has not yet been converted: When Christ arrives, she certainly will be!

I WONDER why God in Christ DIDN'T ordain the book of Enoch to be incorporated in the Scripture of truth? If we believe Proverbs 21.1 (just for one example!), we will have no difficulty in understanding the truth on this matter!
God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

As you say Colin the star of David is a secular symbol for unbelieving Israel at this time.. God sometimes uses his enemies to achieve His will, as in Habakkuk 1:5-11. God spoke his intention to raise up Babylon - a ruthless and dreaded nation to achieve his purpose for Israel. That is not to say that Babylon was approved by God at all. The same goes I believe for the satanic symbol of the star of David.. I do have a problem with Christian teachers such as Jacob Prasch who promote this symbol. It is also true of those supporting the third temple - it will happen, but it is not for Christians to support the work of the Antichrist.
I would dearly like to go on the expedition to Peru that GENSIX Productions/truelegends are organising, but sadly it is way out of my reach. I shall have to be satisfied with the films and other research I think.
I am not sure what you mean by Proverbs 21:1?
God bless

colin said...

Glad you asked.
What I mean by Proverbs 21.1, is that God is 'micro-managing' human affairs, yet sinful man has 'free-will'. I realize that many good men and women would disagree with me, but it is what I sincerely believe; pre-destination/election/sovereignty of God etc. So if we believe this, then how come the book of Enoch isn't in God's word? (God uses humans as His instruments to fulfill His purposes).

"Forever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven". Psalm 119.89. (Is it?-I hope so!)

Some think Enoch should have been incorporated into the Scripture of truth. I am sure if it WAS inspired, it would have been? I believe this fallen angel theory (aka Jewish fables) to be most ghastly, and it sends some 'teachers' into realms of fantasy.
God bless.

The issue of Christians supporting the building of the third temple is bizarre-you would think they would know better. I personally know a group of Christians that helped with the reconstruction of an orthodox Jewish synagogue in Israel some years back-I kid you not!

Monopode said...

There isn't enough information in Genesis to say definitively what these giants were. I've heard a couple of theories. One about descendants of Seth and descendants of Cain marrying which I don't accept because I cannot see how that would result in anything other than normal humans. The idea of disobedient angelic creatures sounds more likely given the strange offspring but again there just isn't enough information. We don't know nor will we in our earthly days. Enoch is interesting and all that but not part of the scriptures so there's no way to get any satisfactory answer.

Treena Gisborn said...

Jude referred to I Enoch as "prophetic" Monopode. I am convinced about the giants personally for a number of reasons, but I know that Colin does not agree. What does concern me is that the last days will be "just as" i.e. "exactly" like the days of Noah - the text is emphatic. If I am correct, then there would have been giants and all sorts of hybrid creatures around during Noah's time. This makes it relevant for the terminal generation. I am thinking about transhumanism and bioengineering i.e. what sort of creatures scientists will produce, or are already producing, in our time. I am researching this and I will be posting about it. God bless.

Monopode said...

I read Enoch once and am aware Jude made reference to one incident concerning Michael which shows us a confrontation between two angelic princes. That incident then is true and I have a vague memory that Enoch is referenced somewhere else in the New Testament but can't quite bring it to mind. As I said I have only read it once but it certainly is not a God breathed book and I wouldn't put much stock in it apart from where it is confirmed in scripture.

Are you saying there is something in the original language that makes you think Jesus meant that things will be exactly like they were before the flood? In English, it seems to me, he qualifies what he means by saying people will be going about their normal business as in the days of Noah, not that nephilim will be walking the earth. Surely he is talking only about sinful people going about their lives as usual before being overtaken by judgment?

Treena Gisborn said...

It appears to say both things Monopode:
"The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."... "Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight, and the earth was filled with violence. 12And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth." 6:5;11-12 The very same chapter Genesis 6:4 mentions the Nephilim.
Also Matthew 24:37, Luke 17:26
I do not claim to have the answers - I am researching/praying.
I do hope to make some sense of it, and when I do I will write something.
It is good that you are asking questions/seeking answers for yourself..
God bless

colin said...

I would refer Monopode to "Earth's Morning" by Horatius Bonar a Scottish pre-millennial theologian who sat under the renowned Thomas Chalmers who gave us the wretched "gap" theory of millions of years between Genesis 1.1 and 1.2!

This compromise as it were was because of the relentless onslaught of Darwinism that was taking part in their day, this "gap" theory was seen as a way of incorporating mans new found geological 'knowledge' with the Bible! And as we know compromise is doomed to failure!

But, anyway, back to "Earth's Morning" (thoughts in Genesis) if Monopode would like to look up https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=miun.ajh0520.0001.001 he may find pages 369-376 on the "Sons of God" to be most helpful.
God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Colin.

God will send them (those who refuse to love the truth) a "powerful delusion" (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. Just as many people are oblivious to sensuality in its various perverted forms in our time, will people become more and more insensitive and oblivious to sin?

Another scripture: "But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power." (2 Timothy 3:1-5).

Many people were oblivious to Hitler's evil at the time ?? Just a few thoughts.
God bless

Monopode said...

I read Bonar's chapter on the sons of God (and a few more besides) and found it to be an interesting theory. There's some extra biblical notions in it but the basic idea that Seth and Cain's descendants intermingled (improving the gene pool as a result) and produced healthier specimens with physical and possibly mental advantages is an attractive answer to the difficult passages in Genesis. I wouldn't say I'm convinced but it has given me food for thought. Thank you, Colin.

Angels and humans mating was always problematic in my mind given what Jesus said about angels not marrying etc but I'd got to the point where I thought just because they do not mate doesn't mean they can't. Plus what we now know about the processes of conception and gestation and what advanced things scientists can do made me wonder if angels with their superior knowledge and abilities had circumnavigated the natural process somehow.

The passages in Genesis 6 haven't kept me awake at night but have always puzzled me. Reading them again in light of Bonar's words does make sense of the issue. We read in chapter 5 about Adam's godly line, then in 6 men multiply on the earth and have daughters, then the sons of God take wives of their own choosing (not God's?) and produce mighty men. It's persuasive.

Treena Gisborn said...

It was the predominate view in the early church that giants were the offspring of fallen angels.

Irenaeus: "And wickedness very long-continued and widespread pervaded all the races of men, until very little seed of justice was in them. For unlawful unions came about on earth, as angels linked themselves with offspring of the daughters of men, who bore to them sons, who on account of their exceeding great were called Giants. The angels, then, brought to their wives as gifts teachings of evil, for they taught them the virtues of roots and herbs, and dyeing and cosmetics and discoveries of precious materials,love-philtes, hatreds, amours, passions, constraints of love, the bonds of witchcraft, every sorcery and idolatry, hateful to God; and when this was come into the world, the affairs of wickedness were propagated to overflowing, and those of justice dwindled to very little."
This link gives the views of other early church fathers.
http://thestrongdelusion.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1207&Itemid=9

The alternative view came about due to Augustine of Hippo I believe, but I am not sure.

God bless

Treena Gisborn said...

"Celsus and Julian the Apostate used the traditional “angel” belief to attack Christianity. Julius Africanus resorted to the Sethite interpretation as a more comfortable ground. Cyril of Alexandria also repudiated the orthodox “angel” position with the “line of Seth” interpretation. Augustine also embraced the Sethite theory and thus it prevailed into the Middle Ages. It is still widely taught today among many churches who find the literal “angel” view a bit disturbing. There are many outstanding Bible teachers who still defend this view."

https://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/chuck-missler-return-of-the-nephilim-the-biblical-perspective-on-the-modern-ufo-alien-phenomena/

BTW I do not endorse Chuck Missler at all, but this information appears to be right.

God bless

Monopode said...

Maybe but there isn't much to go on in the bible is there? That's why it's conjecture at best. The early church fathers didn't write the scriptures so although their interpretations are interesting that's all they are. Interpretations without the weight of God's own black and white words.

Treena Gisborn said...

I am always suspicious of "doctrines" that have been added later on ... the pre-trib rapture for instance. There are scriptures about giants apart from Genesis 6:

And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them. Numbers 13:33

(For only Og the king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. Behold, his bed was a bed of iron. Is it not in Rabbah of the Ammonites? Nine cubits was its length, and four cubits its breadth, according to the common cubit.) (Deuteronomy 3:11)

And there came out from the camp of the Philistines a champion named Goliath of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. (1 Samuel 17:4)

These four were descended from the giants in Gath, and they fell by the hand of David and by the hand of his servants. (2 Samuel 21:16-22; 1 Chronicals 20:4-8)

God bless.

Monopode said...

Yet no direct scripture saying they were the offspring of angels and humans putting the theory on the level of the pre trib rapture perhaps?

Which doctrine are you referring to? The idea that the sons of God were the descendants of Seth? I agree that it isn't clear especially when angels are referred to as sons of God elsewhere in the bible. I'll look forward to reading your findings.

I steer well clear of Chuck Missler. I have more respect for Prasch as a scholar than Missler and my opinion of Prasch is the lowest it's ever been in terms of his teachings.

Treena Gisborn said...

I am referring to the Sethite view which was introduced in the 5th century. The "giant" view seems to have been a given... the scriptures, the church fathers, Josephus the Jewish historian, the Book of Enoch and other extra biblical material, plus the myths of various ancient cultures. I personally find it compelling. I would not bother discussing it, except that I am more and more convinced that it has some relevance to the end times.
Thank you for your input Monopode.
God bless.

Monopode said...

Can I ask why you think it is relevant to the end times as there doesn't appear to be much said in the New Testament, If anything? If it is 5th century as you say then that would put a different spin on it. There is no new revelation after the apostles I'm sure you would agree although I suppose it could be argued that things in the book of Revelation would have confounded anyone until recent times. Doesn't quite seem the same in this instance though.

colin said...

Monopode, I am glad that I have given you "food for thought". It is well-worth another read, or two.

That the prevailing patristic view that the "sons of God" were fallen angels is not up for debate. As Monopode rightly says, "the early church fathers didn't write the scriptures". Their writings are most certainly NOT inspired.

Does not God's word very plainly say of many in the Apostolic (pre-patristic age) that "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest how that they all are not of us." 1 John 2.19? If this WAS true (as the scripture of truth says) before the patristic age, how much more so since?

I only agree with the so-called "Church fathers" if their writings agree with the Bible (that is THE plumb-line).

It very well may be that even the apostles could have believed the fallen angel theory? The New Testament is replete with the failings of the apostles, is it not? To suggest that they weren't influenced by "Jewish fables" of any kind would be very, very wide off the mark, as I believe they were all unbelieving Jews before Jesus CHOSE them for His ministry (just like the apostle Paul).

"Gross darkness was upon this people" Isaiah 60.2. Jesus came into the world; "I am the light of the world" John 9.5. Monopode rightly observed what Jesus said in regard to "angels not marrying etc" (Matt 22.30, Mark 12.25), what is the natural result of marriage but procreation? I believe that the word of God in Christ, puts this matter to rest.

I maintain that the Sethite 'view' has ALL the answers, lets face it, both 'views'can't be right-can they?

If the union of fallen angels and womankind produced children (giants) the gravest question which almost no one seems to consider, is, where does the resultant hybrid stand in regard to salvation? for it is said "He took not on Him the nature of angels (that is those incapable of procreation); but He took on Him the seed of Abraham." Hebrews 2.16. As the "seed of Abraham" is humankind, then quite how the offspring of fallen angels and womankind stand in relation to our Saviour raises questions of the utterly utmost grotesque kind. Is THIS not obvious?

Also, after the flood, the fallen angels must have been female! We can't get around this, or can we?

It is good to discuss these things.

May we all grow in grace and truth.
God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

I am thinking that that the Vatican and other institutions like the Smithsonian have Nephilim DNA. Just as they defiled the human species in those days, will they do so again and produce hybrids through genetic engineering? These are just questions by the way.

The Nephilim could not be saved - they were abominations who should never have come into being. They were completely evil and they were cannibals. The angels who committed this grave sin were expelled to Tartarus:

And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— Jude 1:6, 2 Peter 2:4

Angels do not marry, that is "the angels in heaven" Mark 12:25... these fallen angels sinned grievously in what they did.

There is a question mark over Genesis 4:26.. "At that time people began to call upon the name of the Lord." Hebrew huchal from chalal to pollute, defile profane. Some difference is indicated in how people related to God...

Only Noah and his immediate family were saved.. In other words, the wickedness of people on the earth extended to the descendants of Seth. After the flood there was the sin of Ham, also a descendant of Seth, and then we come to Nimrod from Cush, the son of Ham. Genesis 10:8. I do not think we can make a case for the Sethites to be any better than the descendants of Cain...??

How did the Nephilim come to be on the earth after the flood?? Did fallen angels re-visit the earth? I do not think so as the angels who committed this sin were condemned to Tartarus. Did some of the Nephilim survive the flood or was the DNA in a member of Noah's family corrupted. We know that Noah was blameless in his generation... Genesis 6:9 We can only speculate.

I probably will not post any more on this subject here in the comments, but I am preparing something to post separately.

God bless