Flowers rebuttal against Calvinism is very good technically, BUT there are some questions surrounding his ministry that leave me very puzzled.
One would expect Flowers to have a bible verse on the "Our Beliefs" page of his website, but his primary text is a quotation from AW Tozer! {2} In fact there are many scripture references, but no actual bible quotations on this page at all.
I notice that Flowers also frequently quotes CS Lewis in his videos. Both CS Lewis and AW Tozer were ecumenists and closet mystics. As I look down the list of non-Calvinistic scholars Flowers lists as reading material, I am very troubled indeed. For example, he lists false teachers such as ecumenist Billy Graham, false deliverance teacher Derek Prince, ecumenist Greg Laurie, open theist and annihilationist Clark Pinnock, ecumenist Ravi Zacharias, ecumenist David Jeremiah.. I could go on.. and on... This tells me that Calvinism is not the only serious problem that needs to be addressed within the Southern Baptist denomination. The ecumenical movement is THE biggest threat to biblical Christianity in our time, and yet inexplicably, Flowers actively promotes ecumenical teachers and apostates on his website!
Flowers video: Tiptoeing through the TULIP {2} is well-named. Flowers is at great pains not to tread on anyone's toes! I am surprised he has even started this ministry. Flowers asserts at the outset that he is not anti-Calvinist. This seems a very strange thing to say since his entire website is a rebuttal against Calvinism. His principle point is that Traditionalists and Calvinists interpret certain texts differently and that the discussion does not have to be divisive. However, elsewhere he can't avoid the inevitable conclusion i.e. if Calvinism is correct, then God is the author of wickedness. Is Calvinism another gospel or is it not? If Calvinism is another gospel, then why do Flowers and the Southern Baptists ..put up with it readily enough? (2 Corinthians 11:4). "..ye might well bear with him (or it)] These words have generally been regarded as ironical, nobly would ye bear with him (Alford, Plumptre), and explained of the ready reception which the false teachers had met with.. He (Paul) means, of course, that they have done much more than tolerate the preachers of the false gospel, and have paid them an extravagant deference." {3}
The distortion of the gospel of Jesus Christ is so very weighty a matter that Paul repeated twice: If anyone preaches another gospel.. let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:7-9). Flowers opinion that this is not a divisive subject is unscriptural: ..for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. (1 Corinthians 11:19).
Dr. Eric Hankins: "For the most part, Southern Baptists have been glad to relegate disagreements over Calvinism to secondary status along with other important but “non-essential” theological matters. The Southern Baptist majority has fellowshipped happily with its Calvinist brethren while kindly resisting Calvinism itself. And, to their credit, most Southern Baptist Calvinists have not demanded the adoption of their view as the standard. We would be fine if this consensus continued, but some New Calvinists seem to be pushing for a radical alteration of this longstanding arrangement." {2}
How very agreeable of Satan to play nicely for so long! Seriously though, if you appease Satan for long enough, then he will ultimately push things to breaking point, and this appears? to be exactly what is happening to the Southern Baptists. (Ephesians 4:27; James 4:7;1 Peter 5:8). The thin end of the wedge (idiomatic), is something that if allowed or accepted to a small degree would lead to systematic encroachment. Is the current threat from radical Calvinists a judgement from God upon the Southern Baptists? (Hosea 11:5).
Flowers calls his excessive approval of Calvinist teachers "grown up"; I call it "weakness" ..at best! I find that I cannot rule out a more sinister motive however, due principally to Flowers dubious choice of non-Calvinist reading material and his flattery of many false teachers. Surely Flowers spiritual discernment and excellent exegeses is not limited to one area of expertise? If Flowers really does not have spiritual discernment beyond Calvinism, then I cannot account for it at all, other than to put it down to his employment of Hegelian dialectic. If this is the case, the Southern Baptists are in much more trouble than I originally perceived them to be. If it is not the case, then Flowers and the Southern Baptists indulgence of Calvinist teachers may be an avoidance technique ..that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. (Galatians 6:12).
How very agreeable of Satan to play nicely for so long! Seriously though, if you appease Satan for long enough, then he will ultimately push things to breaking point, and this appears? to be exactly what is happening to the Southern Baptists. (Ephesians 4:27; James 4:7;1 Peter 5:8). The thin end of the wedge (idiomatic), is something that if allowed or accepted to a small degree would lead to systematic encroachment. Is the current threat from radical Calvinists a judgement from God upon the Southern Baptists? (Hosea 11:5).
Flowers calls his excessive approval of Calvinist teachers "grown up"; I call it "weakness" ..at best! I find that I cannot rule out a more sinister motive however, due principally to Flowers dubious choice of non-Calvinist reading material and his flattery of many false teachers. Surely Flowers spiritual discernment and excellent exegeses is not limited to one area of expertise? If Flowers really does not have spiritual discernment beyond Calvinism, then I cannot account for it at all, other than to put it down to his employment of Hegelian dialectic. If this is the case, the Southern Baptists are in much more trouble than I originally perceived them to be. If it is not the case, then Flowers and the Southern Baptists indulgence of Calvinist teachers may be an avoidance technique ..that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. (Galatians 6:12).
Some observations from a previous post:
Sometimes it seems that Flowers would rather condemn those who call out false teachers than the false teachers themselves! A number of people involved in apologetics are called to.. contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3). "Winning the argument", in human terms, as Flowers puts it, is the last thing they are interested in doing! I find Flowers reductionism and his condemnation of those speaking out against apostasy highly offensive! Perhaps more attention to the damage being done to the flock might be in order! (Matthew 7:15; 2 Peter 2:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3). The practice of "Stealth Calvinism" is particularly despicable i.e. the Founders Ministries advice to Calvinistic pastors to avoid full disclosure while interviewing in order to gain leadership positions!
Flowers advice to those finding themselves under the authority of a Calvinist pastor who has insidiously taken over leadership of a "traditional" church: ".. bear with the pastor and pray for him ... ask questions, be patient, serve him, support him and to speak to him.." {7}. This counsel seems very tolerant and loving, but is it? Paul warned about the problem of false teachers who creep in unnoticed. (2 Peter 2:1). If a man has hidden his Calvinism prior to taking up a position as a pastor, then his personal integrity comes into grave question. (Luke 16:10). An elder should be above reproach and an example to the flock. (1 Timothy 4:12). ..to hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. (Titus 1:6-9 cf. James 3:1). The new pastor has created the problem, not those who are upset by his teaching. Not everyone is strong (Romans 14:1); and yet all will be obliged to come under the authority of, and be subject to, false teaching.. actually a different gospel. (Galatians 1:6; 2 Corinthians 11:4). Must a whole congregation suffer and be sacrificed because of one man's dishonesty? (1 Corinthians 5:7-8). I thought that shepherds were supposed to lay down their lives for the flock, not the reverse! (John 10:12-13). I do not think that Flowers would have got on very well with some of the advice the apostle Paul gave at times! (Romans 16:17; 2 Corinthians 11:13). My advice is to politely ask questions, at the beginning, and obviously to pray. After patiently exhausting the possibility of a resolution, failure to act decisively is tantamount to putting up with another gospel. (2 Corinthians 11:4). The sad fact is that Calvinism does split churches, and there comes a time when separation becomes inevitable. (2 Corinthians 6:17). {4}
Jesus warned: You will recognize them by their fruits.. (Matthew 7:16). Who are they and what are their fruits?
Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. (Matthew 7:15 cf. Matthew 24:11; Colossians 2:8).
Sometimes it seems that Flowers would rather condemn those who call out false teachers than the false teachers themselves! A number of people involved in apologetics are called to.. contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3). "Winning the argument", in human terms, as Flowers puts it, is the last thing they are interested in doing! I find Flowers reductionism and his condemnation of those speaking out against apostasy highly offensive! Perhaps more attention to the damage being done to the flock might be in order! (Matthew 7:15; 2 Peter 2:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3). The practice of "Stealth Calvinism" is particularly despicable i.e. the Founders Ministries advice to Calvinistic pastors to avoid full disclosure while interviewing in order to gain leadership positions!
Flowers advice to those finding themselves under the authority of a Calvinist pastor who has insidiously taken over leadership of a "traditional" church: ".. bear with the pastor and pray for him ... ask questions, be patient, serve him, support him and to speak to him.." {7}. This counsel seems very tolerant and loving, but is it? Paul warned about the problem of false teachers who creep in unnoticed. (2 Peter 2:1). If a man has hidden his Calvinism prior to taking up a position as a pastor, then his personal integrity comes into grave question. (Luke 16:10). An elder should be above reproach and an example to the flock. (1 Timothy 4:12). ..to hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. (Titus 1:6-9 cf. James 3:1). The new pastor has created the problem, not those who are upset by his teaching. Not everyone is strong (Romans 14:1); and yet all will be obliged to come under the authority of, and be subject to, false teaching.. actually a different gospel. (Galatians 1:6; 2 Corinthians 11:4). Must a whole congregation suffer and be sacrificed because of one man's dishonesty? (1 Corinthians 5:7-8). I thought that shepherds were supposed to lay down their lives for the flock, not the reverse! (John 10:12-13). I do not think that Flowers would have got on very well with some of the advice the apostle Paul gave at times! (Romans 16:17; 2 Corinthians 11:13). My advice is to politely ask questions, at the beginning, and obviously to pray. After patiently exhausting the possibility of a resolution, failure to act decisively is tantamount to putting up with another gospel. (2 Corinthians 11:4). The sad fact is that Calvinism does split churches, and there comes a time when separation becomes inevitable. (2 Corinthians 6:17). {4}
Jesus warned: You will recognize them by their fruits.. (Matthew 7:16). Who are they and what are their fruits?
Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. (Matthew 7:15 cf. Matthew 24:11; Colossians 2:8).
I have heard Flowers say that John MacArthur is a "good teacher". !!
Can anyone teaching another gospel be a "good teacher"? !!
Quite apart from Calvinism, MacArthur says that we can take the mark of the beast and be saved! (Revelation 14:9, 22:18-19). {5}
I have also heard Flowers say that John Piper is "a humble and a godly man". Really?
John Piper: "The intellectual appeal of the system of Calvinism draws a certain kind of intellectual person.. ..Do Calvinists want to make everybody else Calvinists? Absolutely we do!" {6}
*Piper falsely teaches supersessionism (replacement theology).
*"John Piper opened up Warrengate when he made a mistake by inviting Purpose Driven Pope Rick Warren to be a keynote speaker at the Desiring God Conference 2010." {7}
*Piper promotes the false teaching known as "Christian Hedonism".
*Piper led the ancient spiritual Roman Catholic monastic mystical practice of Lectio Divina at Passion 2012 with Louis Giglio, Francis Chan and Beth Moore. He has since apologised and removed this material from his website. {8}
*Regarding Pipers Book: A Hunger for God, Desiring God Through Fasting and Prayer: "But of even greater concern is that Piper draws from a number of disturbing sources. There are spiritual formation leaders such as Richard Foster (pp. 19, 58, 202-203) and Dallas Willard (pp. 203-204), Roman Catholic priests and monks (p. 210), and the Desert Fathers and early church mystics from which much of modern fasting practices originate (p. 210)." {9}
*Flowers recently highlighted the negative effect of Piper's theistic determinism in a counseling situation. {10} Flowers advice to look to ourselves and our own past experiences if we are struggling with unbelief, is, in my view, unsound and entirely misses the mark. The antidote to error is truth. (John 8:32, 36; Matthew 11:28).
I find Flowers tactic of censuring those who speak out strongly against false teachers highly offensive. Ad hominem attacks aside, the Gospel IS worth fighting for! (1 Timothy 6:12). I am quite prepared to throw my toys out of the pram rather than accept another gospel! (Matthew 21:12; 2 John 1:10; Titus 3:10).
I call upon Flowers to think about the consequences of his prevarications.
Can anyone teaching another gospel be a "good teacher"? !!
Quite apart from Calvinism, MacArthur says that we can take the mark of the beast and be saved! (Revelation 14:9, 22:18-19). {5}
I have also heard Flowers say that John Piper is "a humble and a godly man". Really?
John Piper: "The intellectual appeal of the system of Calvinism draws a certain kind of intellectual person.. ..Do Calvinists want to make everybody else Calvinists? Absolutely we do!" {6}
*Piper falsely teaches supersessionism (replacement theology).
*"John Piper opened up Warrengate when he made a mistake by inviting Purpose Driven Pope Rick Warren to be a keynote speaker at the Desiring God Conference 2010." {7}
*Piper promotes the false teaching known as "Christian Hedonism".
*Piper led the ancient spiritual Roman Catholic monastic mystical practice of Lectio Divina at Passion 2012 with Louis Giglio, Francis Chan and Beth Moore. He has since apologised and removed this material from his website. {8}
*Regarding Pipers Book: A Hunger for God, Desiring God Through Fasting and Prayer: "But of even greater concern is that Piper draws from a number of disturbing sources. There are spiritual formation leaders such as Richard Foster (pp. 19, 58, 202-203) and Dallas Willard (pp. 203-204), Roman Catholic priests and monks (p. 210), and the Desert Fathers and early church mystics from which much of modern fasting practices originate (p. 210)." {9}
*Flowers recently highlighted the negative effect of Piper's theistic determinism in a counseling situation. {10} Flowers advice to look to ourselves and our own past experiences if we are struggling with unbelief, is, in my view, unsound and entirely misses the mark. The antidote to error is truth. (John 8:32, 36; Matthew 11:28).
I find Flowers tactic of censuring those who speak out strongly against false teachers highly offensive. Ad hominem attacks aside, the Gospel IS worth fighting for! (1 Timothy 6:12). I am quite prepared to throw my toys out of the pram rather than accept another gospel! (Matthew 21:12; 2 John 1:10; Titus 3:10).
I call upon Flowers to think about the consequences of his prevarications.
Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. (Revelation 2:16).
{1} https://soteriology101.com/about-2/
{2} https://soteriology101.com/about-2/statement-of-faith/
{3} http://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_corinthians/11-4.htm
{4} https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/calvinism-horrible-decree.html
{5} https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/john-macarthur-false-teacher-wolf-in.html
{6} https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/why-are-calvinists-so-negative
{7} http://apprising.org/2010/04/07/crosstalk-bob-dewaay-on-warrengate-and-john-piper/
{8} https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/a-system-for-praying-in-2012
{9} http://tottministries.org/a-hunger-for-god-desiring-god-through-fasting-and-prayer-by-john-piper-wheaton-crossway-1997-pp-239-paper-10-99/
{10} https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz2emj_LSx0
Dr Leighton Flowers is just another ’broad road’ Christian who has ‘come to Christ’ on his own terms.
ReplyDeleteThese terms being woven from the desires of his own unregenerate, sinful, self-preserving, self-sustaining, self-promoting… will.
He has ‘come to Christ’ to preserve and promote his natural life…a natural life which is continuing to ‘naturally flower’ and flourish through the proclamation of his own godless, unregenerate understanding of God’s word.
When I think of Flowers and his like – and all these godless men and women – these Kellers, Pipers, Macarthurs, Grahams, Princes, Pawsons et al - who offer themselves as mediators between God and men - all these little popes - all these anti-christs - when I consider their broad road multitude - I’m reminded of Christ’s words recounted in Matthew 24/24:
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
And I thank God’s Grace – and only God’s Grace that they haven’t been allowed to deceive me - not one of them….
And I thank God that He graciously gifted me a love for His truth - that I should be saved - and not be one to whom He Himself would send a strong delusion in order that I would believe the lie - and suffer condemnation. Refer: 2 Thess. 2/8-12
And I thank God that through His love for the light of truth which He instilled in me, I was able to discern and ‘find’ the narrow way.
PS I'm not at all impressed by Dr Leighton Flowers CV
Blessings
Certainly Leighton Flowers "ministry" does not add up at all Jack. The ecumenical movement is the prelude to the one world religion! If Flowers doesn't realise that much then he has a serious problem. God bless.
ReplyDeleteThe statement; "Flowers is a former five point Calvinist" is a TOTAL, COMPLETE and UTTER misnomer!
ReplyDeleteI ask you; how many men or women are former Christians? We could use this totally puerile line of reasoning to debunk many 'false teachings' could we not? Did this Flowers character ever fully understand the truth of Calvinistic theology in the first place as the Westminster divines did? Can we not NOW see (as evidenced by your denunciation) that he is a VERY unreliable witness for the truth?
I confess (from an entirely HUMANISITIC viewpoint) that I hate what Calvinism (Christian doctrine) asserts with EVERY bent of my body. But, forget what I hate, think or say; what does God's written word clearly teach? I SEE (after many years of personal study) that pre-destination/election (the flipside being the truth of the doctrine of reprobation) are VERY, VERY CLEARLY taught in God's word. There is MUCH in God's word that I DON'T like, nevertheless, the truth is told in it, warts and all!
We must ever remember that regardless of whether we be Calvinistic or Arminian in our beliefs on soteriology (there is absolutely NO middle ground), the PLAIN truth is that "Narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7.14. These are God's words, not mine. Do I like them? No! most certainly I do NOT. The Saviour came to save His OWN sheep, the inspired words of Paul in 2 Timothy 1.9 leave us in no doubt as to the veritable truth of this.
God bless.
The statement that Flowers is a former five point Calvinist is on his own website.. there are others on that site who make the same claim. I agree that Flowers is an unreliable witness. His endorsement of false ecumenical teachers invalidates his ministry!
ReplyDeleteI cannot equate Christianity with Calvinism as you know. Yes - there are many hard sayings in the Bible.. but I do not find that God predestines anyone to hell. I have given some in depth time and study to this subject again lately. Arminius was in error on some points. I do not see that you have to be an Arminian if you are not a Calvinist.
We will not agree on this Colin.
God bless.
Treena, I wasn't attributing that statement to you. The point I was simply making is just because someone makes a statement saying such and such, doesn't validate it, does it? The world is full of former Christians, 1,2,3-96 point! Calvinists, Arminians, witches, Occultists, Buddhists and what have you! regardless of all this, God has His elect, let us go on making our "calling and election sure" 2 Peter 1.10?
ReplyDeleteRegards "statements of faith" obviously Mr Flowers is all over the place, as for me I would put up the Westminster Confession of Faith (the most noble confession, imho) with perhaps some very minor adjustments, as some do; at least all (with the ability to understand, at least) would know where I was coming from!!!
I FULLY maintain that ALL who are not TULIPs are Arminian by default, but I digress...
Btw, my last post might give some the impression that I am shouting at you, but as you well KNOW, that is NOT the case, it is just that this Google reply format doesn't enable us to emphasize with italics or bold type.
God bless.
I do not think you are shouting at me Colin.. perish the thought (LOL)! We both feel very strongly that we have the right understanding of the scriptures, which makes it challenging at times. It appears that it is possible for a Christian to "fall away", even permanently it seems! 1 Timothy 4:4.2 Thessalonians 2:3. Perhaps we had better not get into that now.
ReplyDeleteThe Westminster Confession has been revised a few times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_Confession_of_Faith
God bless.
Treena,
ReplyDeleteRe your comment on the possibility of 'losing salvation'
The God who has saved me is no failure.
He has willed that I will be saved and saved I will be - despite the inherent weakness of my old nature....
No one can withstand Him - absolutely no one - 2 Chronicles 20/6.
and what God wills(pre-determines) - He, through Christ, inevitably accomplishes. John 6/37-40
God bless
This is all connected to the free will debate.. I agree that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.. Romans 8:38-39.. I am not convinced that we cannot fall away ourselves though.. Listen to Joe Schimmel on this subject. https://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/joe-schimmel-the-great-deception—once-saved-always-saved/
ReplyDeleteGod bless.
The problem which people have in discussing subjects such as free will, predestination and salvation security is that most tackle these subjects in the context of their natural and temporal understanding - which is the entirely wrong context to discuss any of these matters. I was once guilty of this until, one day, as I started to prayerfully consider predestination an instruction cut through my thoughts, and it was this:
ReplyDeleteDefine 'Eternal'
I answered thus: 'Without beginning and without end.'
And this answer had a profound effect on me when I began to consider the full implications of....'without beginning and without end':
1)If someone manifests true eternal life here on earth then that life couldn't possibly have started here - it must have pre-existed the physical creation of the universe - existing eternally in some form of conceptual/prescriptive/Let there be... state.
2)If someone manifests eternal life here on earth and later loses it - it could never have been 'eternal' life in the first place.
3)If an eternal life exists prior to the creation of this world in an eternal, prescriptive state, then that life is, through Christ's sacrifice, predestined to develop into the fullness promised by its prescriptive/conceptual/Let there be.... form.
All three of which 'eternal' implications leave absolutely no room for human 'free will'
God Bless
If you are suggesting that we existed somehow before creation, that is not biblical. God is eternal.. He has eternal life and existed before creation. When we are born again we receive His life, not before that.
ReplyDeleteThere are numerous passages in the bible that refute the "once saved always saved" false teaching:
Jude 3, 5-6; 1 Corinthians 10; 1 Peter 5:12; Hebrews 10:29; Acts 13:43; Hebrews 12:15; Galatians 1:6; James 4:6; Ezekiel 13:22, 18:24; Matthew 4:6-7; John 8:34-44; Romans 8:12-14; Romans 11:22; Luke 8:11-13; Luke 13:24; Revelation 2:10, 3:5, 22:19; Matthew 10:28; John 15:3, 5-6, 16:1; 2 Corinthians 11:3; James 1: 12, 14-16, 21, 5:19-20; 1 John 2:24-26, 3: 7-8a,10, 14, 2 Peter 2:1-22, 3:15-17; 2 Timothy 2:12-13; Matthew 10:22-33, 24:10.... etc.
If we rely on our own reasoning we will inevitably fail. Proverbs 3:5.
God bless.
I'll leave it there Treena - except to state that I was not relying on my own reasoning.
ReplyDeleteIndependent reasoning is a complete illusion.
Human thinking is either inspired by the Spirit of Truth or -
Sired by the father of lies.
There is no safe, middle ground - except God's grace.
I personally would hate to be holding to lies - and so I'll be praying that God, through His Holy Spirit will, if necessary, correct my thinking.
Not one of the supposed “numerous passages in the bible that refute the "once saved always saved" false teaching” refute anything of the matter, for eternal security is NOT a false teaching. Not one of those passages teach that; you are adding to the Scriptures through interpreting exegetically and out of context. There are well over 500 clear passages that teach eternal security so plain and simple, that one has to be spiritually blind not to see it. Precisely. Eternal life and eternal security are the same thing. Salvation is inseparable from eternal security. They are one and the same thing (Jn. 3:15-18, 36; 5:24, 39-40; 6:27-58; 10:27-29; 11:25-26; 17:2-3; etc—and that’s only the book of John).
ReplyDeleteJack the scriptures say "do not lean on YOUR OWN understanding". Proverbs 3:5. Also Proverbs 28:26 Whoever trusts IN HIS OWN MIND is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.
ReplyDeleteThose who prophesy "OUT OF THEIR OWN MINDS" Ezekiel 13:17; Jeremiah 23:16.
Yes it is best that we do leave it there.
God bless.
Anonymous... Christians have received "eternal life". We received it of our own volition, not by "irresistible grace". There are many scriptures that contradict "once saved always saved"? Have you listened to Joe Schimmel's video?https://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/joe-schimmel-the-great-deception—once-saved-always-saved/
ReplyDeleteI would be happy if "once saved always saved" were true, but we need to be cautious -and I am not at all convinced. What is the sum of God's Word? Psalm 119:160.
It would be good if we could get back to the subject of the post and Leighton Flowers approval of ecumenism.
God bless.
The biblical answer is the doctrine of supralapsarianism; which teaches that the decree of election preceded human creation and the fall. As human beings, there WAS a point in time when the first man was PHYSICALLY created, nevertheless, to suggest that there was never a 'time' when humankind was not in the mind, that is in the eternal counsels of God, would be utterly preposterous! The Scripture teaches that "The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world" Revelation 13.8, before Adam was created!(1 Peter 1.19-20).
ReplyDeleteI quote A.W.Pink;
"Why, to bring Christ into the world only on account of sin and for the work of redemption were to subject Him unto us, making our interests the end of His becoming incarnate! That is indeed to get things upside down." He goes on to say that "Redemption itself was designed by God first for Christ's own glory rather than to meet our need."
Getting one's head round time and eternity is not easy!
God bless.
Treena,
ReplyDeleteForgive my continued digression from the theme of this post but you stated in your response to Anonymous that you received your salvation through (the working of) your own volition. This cannot be - because we are told in scripture that we receive salvation through grace and not through any works of our own.
-It is important to make the distinction between FROM the foundation of the world and BEFORE the foundation of the world. He (Jesus Christ) was foreknown BEFORE the foundation of the world 1 Peter 1 20.
ReplyDelete..even as he chose us IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love... Ephesians 1:4 IN HIM IS CRITICAL.. as per my previous post "The Spirit of Calvinism".
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain FROM the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8
And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life FROM the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. Revelation 17:8
I do not deny God's foreknowledge Colin.. God obviously knows everything - I do not doubt that we were in His mind. My point is that we had no REAL existence until we were created.
God bless.
But this is semantics! Of course it is "FROM the foundation of the world", As I stated previously, mankind WAS in the Father's eternal counsels, how could it be otherwise?
ReplyDeleteBut, to deny that God didn't "have a plan" BEFORE the world was, would be preposterous!
Pre-destination/election/reprobation is a very deep subject that many struggle with, and can't accept (don't like?), and I well understand that, but as for me I see it clearly taught in the Bible. But not only "we were in His mind" as you so rightly say, but everything that has or will yet happen in the future has been pre-destined, otherwise HOW will the yet unfulfilled Bible prophecies ever come to pass, I would sincerely like to know?
"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered." Matthew 10.29-30.
God not only has "foreknowledge", but He is the God in whom we have our movement and being (Acts 17.28) The cause and effect of EVERYTHING! Yet we have our 'free-wills'!
I digress...it's tipping down with rain up here!
God bless
Free will does not invalidate grace Jack. We are saved by grace through faith.. Ephesians 2:8 The response to God's invitation of our own volition is not a "work". It is no detriment to God in any way that He has given us free will.. quite the reverse in fact.
ReplyDeleteGod bless.
Colin Predestination/Reprobation, as the Calvinists understand it, is an impossible pill to swallow..
ReplyDelete"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16).
I'm not sure how WORLD and WHOSOEVER only applies to a privileged few.. It is as clear as clear to me.
God bless.
But, HOW do non Calvinists understand "Predestination/Reprobation" as you have said? I would dearly love to know; the truth is, they don't! I really do understand that it is "an impossible pill to swallow", as you so rightly say, I very nearly choked on it!
ReplyDelete"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." Indeed, God's word PLAINLY declares THAT veritable truth, God forbid that I should deny it! But, the question is WHY do we believe? WHO caused us to believe? "Who maketh thee to differ from another?" 1 Corinthians 4.7. "NO man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" John 6.44.
"Whosoever", I may add, applies to "..as many as the Lord our God shall call" Acts 2.39. I most certainly DON'T set limits for the "privileged few" as you say, God does THAT! As for the "world"; what is the world, exactly? The context of every verse in Scripture will reveal the truth as it is in Christ. John 3.16 is perhaps, undeniably the best known, and yet the least understood verse in the entire Bible, but what of its context from the very first verse? Nicodemus WAS a Pharisee! yet what did God in Christ say to "the scribes and the Pharisees" in John 8.44? "Ye are of your father the devil". Did the Saviour love Judas? The Bible teaches in no uncertain terms that he WAS "a devil" John 6.70, yet Jesus "chose" him to do the dastardly deed! Sounds a completely and totally STUPID thing to do, does it not? Why "choose" someone to betray you? But as a dreaded Calvinist, I understand, by God's grace ALONE these "impossible" doctrines as revealed in His word.
May we all grow in grace and truth.
God bless.
Treena,
ReplyDeleteThe complete Ephesians 2/8 reads:
For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
Talking of faith being a gift from God - rather than being humanly sourced independently from God, there are numerous misinterpretations in the corrupted versions of the Bible which imply that faith is sourced in the human psyche.
For instance in Colossians 2/12 of the KJV Paul states that he lives by the faith OF the Son of God but in the corrupt NIV Paul states that he lives by faith IN the Son of God – BIG DIFFERENCE!!
Another example is found in Galatians 2/16 where, in the KJV faith is referred to as the faith OF Christ but in the NIV it is referred to as faith IN Christ – BIG DIFFERENCE!!
Again in Romans 3/22 faith is stated as being of Christ, but in the NIV equivalent it is described as faith in Jesus.
Humanly sourced ‘faith’ has no saving power - it is Christ based faith which is a gift bestowed on the sinner which has the power to save.
God must gift Christ’s faith to the sinner so that he/she might, by the faith of Christ, believe in Him and be saved.
And that faith is not gifted to everyone…. otherwise all would be saved
God gifts Christ’s faith to whom He chooses/wills.
Human choice and human volition are not eternal collaterol
I do not like the NIV or the New Living Translation Jack. I like the KJV - I often quote the ESV as I have the widget for it. I often refer back to the original languages when something is unclear in the versions. Faith is a gift as you say. Faith is to put our trust into Jesus Christ. However, we can choose to put our trust in all sorts of things - we can trust in money.. or our own works Jeremiah 48:7; In princes or mortal men Psalm 146:3. We are exhorted to put our trust in the Lord..2 Chronicles 20:20; Isaiah 26:4; John 12:44. It is a choice.
ReplyDelete"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL PEOPLE to myself." John 12:32. I believe that the invitation is to all people and that God Jesus draws ALL men (people) to Himself. It is possible to harden oneself -- to suppress the truth:
ReplyDeleteFor the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. Romans 1:18.
God holds people responsible for their unbelief.
We can keep going round in circular arguments Colin.
To limit the gospel of Jesus Christ is a terrible sin.
It grieves me that Satan has duped so many believers through Calvinism.
God bless.