jacob prasch moriel ministries and his rabid tirade! who is the liar by the way?

Jacob Prasch's latest tirade makes me think that he must have lost the plot completely. He now denies, kind of, that he claimed to pre-date the pre-wrath scholars regarding the pre-wrath position. JP also claims, surprisingly, that the work of Robert Van Kampen and Marvin Rosenthall was not groundbreaking at all and that Samuel Tregelles pre-dated them!

* Just to clarify exactly what JP said about his views pre-dating pre-wrath, I quote him verbatim below. He was desperately back-pedalling in a more recent rant yesterday, during which he denounced me as a feminist and a liar. His video of just three days ago certainly suggests very strongly to me that he claimed to pre-date the pre-wrath position, but I shall let you be the judge:

9th August 2016:

JP: "LONG BEFORE the term 'pre-wrath' was crystallised... I and others like me.. BEFORE pre-wrath came into vogue, BEFORE the term was coined, I believed that the rapture was between the sixth and seventh seal.. I and others have ALWAYS believed that the rapture will not take place until the faithful church knows who the Antichrist is .. I believed it BEFORE pre-wrath was even termed 'pre wrath' and believed it BEFORE those books that launched pre-wrath were written." {1}

* I defy anyone to show me that Samuel Tregelles was anything other than classic post-tribulational. There is no mention of the concept of a pre-wrath rapture in any of his material. A copy of his book: Hope of Christ's Second Coming can be downloaded on the following link:   https://community.logos.com/forums/t/55634.aspx

I own a copy of Robert Van Kampens book 'The Rapture Question Answered' which was published in 1997. Tregelles gets a brief mention on page 193 for his part in opposing pretribulationalism, but there is no allusion to any role he supposedly played in developing the pre-wrath view. IF he played a groundbreaking part in establishing the pre-wrath view as JP contends, why isn't he mentioned in this respect by Van Kampen?

Just in case there was any doubt however, my friend Colin Ford contacted the Secretary of the Sovereign Grace Advent Testimony (SGAT), Mr Stephen A Toms, who has been secretary of the SGAT for over forty years since 1974, printing and distributing prophetic material. Mr Toms has thoroughly confirmed that Samuel Tregelles was post-tribulational. 

COLIN FORD:

"Speaking of the Pre-Wrath view, Jacob Prasch says on page 19 in his 2011 book 'Shadows of the Beast'; 

'This view, however, is not new but predates any other main position for the timing of the Rapture and Resurrection. There are credible arguments that it was held in the pre-Nicean church by those close in time to the apostles, and it was held by the more learned of the early Dispensationalists such as Dr Samuel Tregelles in the 19th century with no reference to the inventions of men like Scofield.'

This cannot be true-surely? Dr Tregelles was not a Dispensationalist, and also, surely he was post-tribulational? Mr Prasch gives no source material to support his statement. I would very much like to know your thoughts on Mr Prasch's claims." 

REPLY 

"Dear Mr Ford,

I do not know Mr Prasch or his book.

Dr Tregelles was not a dispensationalist in the generally accepted sense of the word. He was most certainly a post tribulationist. 

Yours sincerely, 

Stephen A Toms" 

* No other scholar that I am aware of cites the gospel of John as an eschatological birth pangs motif in the peculiar sense that JP does. The context and the co-text simply do not allow for such an interpretation.

I shall repeat my argument again:

JP: "As translated by The New Testament Greek, Jesus clearly and directly refers to the 'Beginning of Birth pangs' as "Thelipsis" / TRIBULATION in John 16:21 .....in this same John chapter 16 in verses 20-22, Jesus speaks of His Second Coming as being proceeded by the Birth Pangs seen in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and as is illustrated in the vision of the woman in travail in Revelation chapter 12.." {2}

The context defines the meaning of thlipsis. The PRIMARY MEANING of John 16 is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the birth of the church. The disciples would "weep and lament" - they would be "sorrowful", but their sorrow would turn to joy (verse 20). ....you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. (John 16:22) Jesus refers to his post-resurrection appearances and the permanent presence of the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, as a result of his departure (cf. 14:17). The disciples DID NOT experience persecution during the time that they were weeping/lamenting/sorrowful. If THE PRIMARY MEANING does not speak of tribulation, why should any SECONDARY MEANING? Most translators have "anguish" (thlipsis v21) and not tribulation or persecution. JP has twisted thlipsis to fit his own interpretation - this is a dishonest use of the context! (2 Peter 3:16-17).

The first four seals broken in Revelation 6:1-6 correspond with the birth pains in Matthew 24:5-8. The great tribulation corresponds with the breaking of the fifth seal Revelation 6.

It is important to notice that the beginning of birth pains/the four horsemen are WORLD WIDE PHENOMENA, they do not specifically apply to the tribulation of the church as JP insists. 

Matthew 24: The tribulation follows the birth pains in verses 5-8.... THEN verse 9..... In other words, JP's insistence that tribulation is associated with the beginning of birth pains is false. There is no disconnect between “the tribulation” of verse 9 and “the great tribulation” of verse 21. The first word in verse 15 is THEREFORE - oún (a conjunction: therefore, now then, accordingly so - typically translated "therefore" which means, "By extension, here's how the dots connect".

For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. THEN they will deliver you up to TRIBULATION and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. verse 15: THEREFORE (οὖν) when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel...... verse 21: For then there will be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be (Matthew 24:5-21). Mark 13 confirms the sequence of events in Matthew 24. 

Revelation 12: The event that triggers the tribulation is Satan's expulsion from heaven when he is thrown down to earth (Revelation 12:7-12). The woman (Israel) will be divinely protected after the midweek abomination of desolation and during the subsequent reign of the Antichrist. (Revelation 12:16) AFTER THAT HAPPENS the Antichrist turns his attention towards believers: THEN the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. (Revelation 12:17)

Once again, no specific "tribulation" is mentioned prior to the mid point of the 70th week.  

My full refutation of JP's false eschatology can be found on the following link: 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/INTRA-SEAL-RAPTURE-DECEPTION-EXPOSED-devised-ebook/dp/B06X6N2JJT

* Jacob Prasch claims to be a mind reader as well! He says that I am at odds with Moriel because they believe that leadership is male and that I want to be a teacher and to teach men!!! I have never said or even implied any such thing! I guess JP has to grasp at whatever straw he can, since he cannot refute me biblically. I can assure my readers that I have no "men wearing skirts pandering to me" at all. This is an insult I believe to Colin and Irv who regularly post comments on my blog. Actually Colin has corrected me a few times and I am very thankful to him for his wisdom and knowledge. Irv is also a mine of information and specialises in eschatology in his own right. If JP were not so very dangerous, with vulnerable Christians hanging onto his every word, I would not bother to refute him. As it is, I consider him to be a liability regarding anything remotely Christian, especially eschatology. 

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Corinthians 13:4-7) 

{1} https://youtu.be/V3iu1t6kh-I