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Friday, 12 August 2016

jacob prasch moriel ministries and his rabid tirade! who is the liar by the way?

Jacob Prasch's latest tirade makes me think that he must have lost the plot completely. He now denies, kind of, that he claimed to pre-date the pre-wrath scholars regarding the pre-wrath position. JP also claims, surprisingly, that the work of Robert Van Kampen and Marvin Rosenthall was not groundbreaking at all and that Samuel Tregelles pre-dated them!

* Just to clarify exactly what JP said about his views pre-dating pre-wrath, I quote him verbatim below. He was desperately back-pedalling in a more recent rant yesterday, during which he denounced me as a feminist and a liar. His video of just three days ago certainly suggests very strongly to me that his views on the rapture pre-dated the pre-wrath postion, but I shall let you be the judge.

9th August 2016:

JP: "LONG BEFORE the term 'pre-wrath' was crystallised... I and others like me.. BEFORE pre-wrath came into vogue, BEFORE the term was coined, I believed that the rapture was between the sixth and seventh seal.. I and others have ALWAYS believed that the rapture will not take place until the faithful church knows who the Antichrist is .. I believed it BEFORE pre-wrath was even termed 'pre wrath' and believed it BEFORE those books that launched pre-wrath were written." {1}

* I defy anyone to show me that Samuel Tregelles was anything other than classic post-tribulational. There is no mention of the concept of a pre-wrath rapture in any of his material. A copy of his book: Hope of Christ's Second Coming can be downloaded on the following link:   https://community.logos.com/forums/t/55634.aspx

I own a copy of Robert Van Kampens book 'The Rapture Question Answered' which was published in 1997. Tregelles gets a brief mention on page 193 for his part in opposing pretribulationalism, but there is no allusion to any role he supposedly played in developing the pre-wrath view. IF he played a groundbreaking part in establishing the pre-wrath view as JP contends, why isn't he mentioned in this respect by Van Kampen?

Just in case there was any doubt however, my friend Colin Ford contacted the Secretary of the Sovereign Grace Advent Testimony (SGAT), Mr Stephen A Toms, who has been secretary of the SGAT for over forty years since 1974, printing and distributing prophetic material. Mr Toms has thoroughly confirmed that Samuel Tregelles was post-tribulational. 

COLIN FORD:

"Speaking of the Pre-Wrath view, Jacob Prasch says on page 19 in his 2011 book 'Shadows of the Beast'; 

'This view, however, is not new but predates any other main position for the timing of the Rapture and Resurrection. There are credible arguments that it was held in the pre-Nicean church by those close in time to the apostles, and it was held by the more learned of the early Dispensationalists such as Dr Samuel Tregelles in the 19th century with no reference to the inventions of men like Scofield.'

This cannot be true-surely? Dr Tregelles was not a Dispensationalist, and also, surely he was post-tribulational? Mr Prasch gives no source material to support his statement.
I would very much like to know your thoughts on Mr Prasch's claims." 

REPLY 

"Dear Mr Ford,

I do not know Mr Prasch or his book.

Dr Tregelles was not a dispensationalist in the generally accepted sense of the word. He was most certainly a post tribulationist. 

Yours sincerely, 

Stephen A Toms" 

* No other scholar that I am aware of cites the gospel of John as an eschatological birth pangs motif in the peculiar sense that JP does. The context and the co-text simply do not allow for such an interpretation.

I shall repeat my argument again:

JP: "As translated by The New Testament Greek, Jesus clearly and directly refers to the 'Beginning of Birth pangs' as "Thelipsis" / TRIBULATION in John 16:21 .....in this same John chapter 16 in verses 20-22, Jesus speaks of His Second Coming as being proceeded by the Birth Pangs seen in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and as is illustrated in the vision of the woman in travail in Revelation chapter 12.." {2}

The context defines the meaning of thlipsis. The PRIMARY MEANING of John 16 is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the birth of the church. The disciples would "weep and lament" - they would be "sorrowful", but their sorrow would turn to joy (verse 20). ....you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. (John 16:22) Jesus refers to his post-resurrection appearances and the permanent presence of the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, as a result of his departure (cf. 14:17). The disciples DID NOT experience persecution during the time that they were weeping/lamenting/sorrowful. If THE PRIMARY MEANING does not speak of tribulation, why should any SECONDARY MEANING? Most translators have "anguish" (thlipsis v21) and not tribulation or persecution. JP has twisted thlipsis to fit his own interpretation - this is a dishonest use of the context! (2 Peter 3:16-17).

The first four seals broken in Revelation 6:1-8 correspond with the birth pains in Matthew 24. The great tribulation corresponds with the breaking of the fifth seal Revelation 6.

It is important to notice that the beginning of birth pains/the four horsemen are WORLD WIDE PHENOMENA, they do not specifically apply to the tribulation of the church as JP insists. 

Matthew 24: The tribulation follows the birth pains in verses 5-8.... THEN verse 9..... In other words, JP's insistence that tribulation is associated with the beginning of birth pains is false. There is no disconnect between “the tribulation” of verse 9 and “the great tribulation” of verse 21. The first word in verse 15 is THEREFORE - oún (a conjunction: therefore, now then, accordingly so - typically translated "therefore" which means, "By extension, here's how the dots connect".

For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. THEN they will deliver you up to TRIBULATION and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. verse 15: THEREFORE (οὖν) when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel...... verse 21: For then there will be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be (Matthew 24:5-21). Mark 13 confirms the sequence of events in Matthew 24. 

Revelation 12: The event that triggers the tribulation is Satan's expulsion from heaven when he is thrown down to earth (Revelation 12:7-12). The woman (Israel) will be divinely protected after the midweek abomination of desolation and during the subsequent reign of the Antichrist. (Revelation 12:16) AFTER THAT HAPPENS the Antichrist turns his attention towards believers: THEN the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. (Revelation 12:17)

Once again, no specific "tribulation" is mentioned prior to the mid point of the 70th week.  

My full refutation of JP's false eschatology can be found on the following link: 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/INTRA-SEAL-RAPTURE-DECEPTION-EXPOSED-devised-ebook/dp/B06X6N2JJT/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488009517&sr=8-1&keywords=treena+gisborn

* Jacob Prasch claims to be a mind reader as well! He says that I am at odds with Moriel because they believe that leadership is male and that I want to be a teacher and to teach men!!! I have never said or even implied any such thing! I guess JP has to grasp at whatever straw he can, since he cannot refute me biblically. I can assure my readers that I have no men wearing skirts pandering to me at all. This is an insult I believe to Colin and Irv who regularly post comments on my blog. Actually Colin has corrected me a few times and I am very thankful to him for his wisdom and knowledge. Irv is also a mine of information and specialises in eschatology in his own right. If JP were not so very dangerous, with vulnerable Christians hanging onto his every word, I would not bother to refute him. As it is, I consider him to be a liability regarding anything remotely Christian, especially eschatology. 

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Corinthians 13:4-7) 


26 comments:

Monopode said...

In this video Prasch says that the idea that the restrainer is an angel is precarious yet says the Spirit goes and sends Jesus. No scripture I can find says this. How precarious then is Prasch's own position? It's as if he's a child trying to force two pieces of a jigsaw together that simply do not fit. Jesus goes and sends the Spirit. The Spirit goes and sends Jesus. BOOK CHAPTER VERSE?

I don't know if he's lying or mistaken on the points you raise but I do know he cannot provide scripture to back up the above statement nor can he link John 16 directly, plainly to the great tribulation. And he sets this idea before the saints?

Treena Gisborn said...

I would add Monodpode that his continual dishonesty is plain for all to see. He cannot argue his position scripturally and so he is reduced to making vile personal attacks. It really is very ugly. I am convinced that anyone with even a small degree of discernment will be able to see the truth and will separate from him as the bible says.
God bless

Monopode said...

His elders/pastor should have something to say. The thing is he's widely known and a lot of people read his materials. His unpleasantness has bothered me in the past but I think I overlooked it thinking about what Jesus said about specks and planks. Nobody well known seems to be challenging him on his ideas so far. I'm going to try to contact him and ask him for chapter and verse. I've tried commenting on Moriel but haven't had an answer.

colin said...

Treena,
As Monopode says "BOOK CHAPTER VERSE?" There is none!

Jacob Prasch has much influence over many people; including myself until early 2012, and you until very recently. I would not be so daft as to say that you ever worshipped JP, but certainly you held him in the highest esteem as a teacher?
But, when Jacob published "Shadows of the Beast" in 2011; to attribute what he did to Samuel Tregelles, is utterly untrue. Why make such a baseless statement? I get no pleasure from calling men liars.
I read his book within a month of its publication, and told Jacob at a meeting in Bristol, days afterward. Back then my eschatological understanding was much more dim than it is now.

These recent turn of events regarding JP/Moriel's 'teaching', most surely call into question everything he has ever written and taught up until this hour?

Again, I get absolutely no pleasure from debasing any man's ministry, but, I believe he cannot be trusted, and should be avoided.
God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

We don't really know what is going on behind the scenes.. I think it will take time to fully come out into the open and for his friends/associates to say something publicly. Actually a couple of people have contacted me privately. When people's positions are involved, it puts them in a difficult place and they may have internal struggles going on. In the end it is down to whether they love the truth more than other things. (2 Thessalonians 2:10)

Treena Gisborn said...

I did hold him in very high esteem Colin, although there were a few question marks lingering in the background, and his behaviour bothered me as well. Once deception begins and it is not dealt with, it all comes tumbling down sooner or later. If someone can't be trusted with small things, then they cannot be trusted with bigger things. I wonder why he made up the Tregelles thing, doesn't he realise we will check every detail he says now? God bless

Anonymous said...

Hi Trina,
I have had my eyes opened from your amazing challenges on JP's doctrines. His presentations, language & behaviour are shocking! I too have read most of his books & magazines for about 11 years. Now I am dumping them! I too, have always felt twinges of concern regarding his bluntness, & lack of gracious, kindness that is a fruit of the spirit. His horrible way of speaking about females is absolutely the opposite of how the Lord Jesus Christ reveals His love towards any women that love Him & Seek after Him alone.
I am just so glad that I have come across your blog.
Now I will pray that the Lord will reveal to me all the wrong doctrines that I may have assimilated from him. I am so grateful that the Lord will keep on leading His sheep away from the hirelings.
So I wish to thank you for all the time & effort you are putting into standing for Truth. Truth is paramount.
Helen

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you for getting in touch Helen. It is very encouraging to hear that my expose of JP is reaching people and setting them free from false doctrines. I do pray that the Lord will lead us into all truth. God bless x

Anonymous said...

This is very strange-you would think that a scholar like Prasch would get his facts right before cementing them into print-if what you say is right in regards to Tregelles? How would we know if there are not other thigs that he is in error about-written and verbal?

Treena Gisborn said...

I have sought three separate opinions about Tregelles Anonymous. I have read Tregelles myself, and I also have Robert Van Kampen's book 'The Rapture Question Answered'. I am certain that Tregelles had no part to play in the pre-wrath view. I really am concerned that JP says such blatant untruths with conviction and authority. He appears to be an "expert", but the more I look into his theology and his tactics, the more I am convinced that he is a charlatan. It seems to have become an issue around the time he wrote 'Shadows of the Beast', but I am not sure.. I do think his earlier work was good. The very fact that he is unreliable and untruthful speaks volumes. God bless

Anonymous said...

Thank you again dear, for bringing such clarity and truth. You stand on the scripture unwavering and we stand with you.

God bless
Pat

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Pat and also Mike for both your contributions and exposure of the outrageous antics of JP. It hardly seems possible that a so called "leader/teacher" could behave in such a disreputable and slanderous way in public! If I had seen such a venomous display before I became a Christian it would have put me off Christianity completely. What does he think he is doing?

colin said...

Just logged onto Moriel this morning to see if JP had anything to say.
What do you think of Jacob's latest hopscotch article regarding the origins of Pre-Wrath/Inter-Seal?

He does finally admit that Dr TREGELLES was post-tribulational, but in his usual "round the mulberry bush" way! (How many other errors are in his book?)
JP's ignorance is breathtaking! he cannot bring himself to honour that eminent old theologian by spelling his name correctly! In JP's "Shadows of the Beast" it was "Tregellas", in his latest article, it is now "Tregallis"! Some might think we are talking about a different man?
And this from a man whose followers trust with the finer points of theology!

At least there are no more broadsides?
God bless.

Mike Rogers said...

To my knowledge the one work which supports the prewrath view is actually dated between A.D. 50-120 which is the Didache: Chapter 16 is as follows:

Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord. Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: "The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him." Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

I'm not sure about CS Lovett however I just ordered his book and will read it carefully to see if Prasch is right. I'm sure Van Kampen was aware of CS Lovett as he did his homework. What Van Kampen and Rosenthal meant by "they were not setting any new precedents and denied they were entering new territory" was simply humility on their part. They were returning to the early church position, the Didache was included in their research as proof of a prewrath view. Other church fathers wrote clarifying the church would suffer persecution by Antichrist. Contrary to Prasch's stance, Van Kampen and also Rosenthal are the only two to coin the phrase "prewrath" and it cost them reputation to do so. Intra-seal is costing Prasch nothing and is faulty at best.

Treena Gisborn said...

JP seems incapable of admitting that he is directly wrong about ANYTHING doesn't he Colin? Now he says it was NOT TREGELLES, but Lovett. Van Kampen developed and taught the pre-wrath view during the 1970s at around the same time as Lovett. It appears that the two men became aware of different aspects of pre-wrath independently at around the same time. I consider that Van Kampen's work WAS groundbreaking, though JP is absolutely determined to slander me and call me an "ignoramus"! Tregelles is now confirmed, EVEN BY JP, to be postribulational. If JP cannot even spell his name correctly, who actually is the "ignoramus"?

https://www.moriel.org/component/k2/item/2682-the-development-and-origins-of-modern-pre-wrath-inter-seal%20positions.html

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Mike, it will be very interesting to see what you conclude from reading Lovett. All this is because the mighty JP WILL NOT be challenged about his intra-seal view - or anything else for that matter. God bless

Mike Rogers said...

Doing some research I have discovered that C.S Lovett what he describes is his version of what he called PreWrath. He believes the Church will go through seven years of tribulation, and at the end of those seven years, i.e., the end of Daniel's 70th week, it will be raptured and then the wrath of God is poured out, i.e., the seven bowls of wrath. After 45 days, the Church will then return with Christ. Though he says he is a "Prewrather," his doctrine reads as sort of a combination of PreWrath/Posttrib.

A term does not establish a doctrine, even if he used the term "prewrath" in his book, his view is apart from the prewrath rapture position as taught by Van Kampen and Rosenthal. Again...Prasch is grasping at straws to diminish the ground breaking work of these men in an attempt to establish is own intra-seal view. That's just sad in and of itself.

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Mike... I was not aware of Lovett's work in any great detail - but being an "ignoramus" no surprises there! I will be glad to hear more when you have read his book. God bless.

colin said...

I had never heard of C.S.Lovett, until today. Strange why Prasch never mentioned him in his "Shadows of the Beast" considering he is NOW the "first author to identify himself with Pre-Wrath"? (Prasch's words!). No doubt, Lovett may have read/been influenced by the works of B.W.Newton, S.P.Tregelles, J.N.Darby and others, picking and choosing bits of theology from here and there in order to concoct some kind of rapture theory, as JP now seems to be doing?

According to what Mike Rogers says above, I think Lovett's book should be left well alone; if he is teaching that "After 45 days, the Church will then return with Christ"? Is this forty five days after the Second Coming? Have I got this right? Or maybe he means 45 days after the Pre-Wrath rapture which could be a few days before the Second Advent? I may start to get confused!
Of the Forty five days, Tregelles offers "a few considerations", but that is NOT one of them!
God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

What a relief Colin.. I thought I had missed a trick. God bless

Anonymous said...

Hello Treena,

Jacob Prasch seems to be in that place where when you're in a hole you should stop digging.

Sadly he appears to want to continue to dig deeper, after all pride does make you do stupid things, especially when you're starting to loose credibility.

Calling you an ignoramus must be the product of the company he keeps at Ziontalywain.

Keep up the good work along with those who've commented above,

James Pollard

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you for your encouragement James. I think I should take it as a good sign after all (Matthew 5:11). God bless.

colin said...

Jacob Prasch says "Van Kampen actually purchased the publishing rights for Tregallis' book."

I believe if a book is of a certain age; over 100 years I think, such a book belongs in the public domain. This is why you can post, print, and blog the KJV 1611 & RV (1881) versions to your hearts content-not so with the NIV, ESV etc, because they are protected in law. You have to apply to Zondervan (Murdoch) for permission (and in some cases pay them).
So, as Dr Tregelles died in 1875, then why would Van Kampen have purchased the "publishing rights"? Who would have he purchased them from? Tregelles's work is public property. As for "Tregallis" I cannot say!
God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

It just gets more and more bizarre!!!

Jacob Prasch: "His ({Tregelles} misspelled Tregallis) works were republished by the Sign Ministries of Bob Van Kampen..... Van Kampen actually purchased the publishing rights for Tregallis' book."

https://www.moriel.org/component/k2/item/2682-the-development-and-origins-of-modern-pre-wrath-inter-seal%20positions.html

Van Kampen wrote his book "The Sign" which was published by Crossway Books - 3 editions 1992, 1999 and 2000. There is no information that Van Kampen had a publishing company or purchased the rights to Tregelles work. Would this be why JP misspelled Tregelles in order to confuse everyone?

"The Sign Ministries grew out of Robert Van Kampen's 9000 hours of study on end-times, which resulted in the publication of his book 'The Sign' in 1992. Response to the book was so great that an office was set up to field incoming calls, letters, and requests for meetings in churches. Teachers were invited to the staff and the ministry functioned for nine years as an organization specializing in the teaching of end time events through booklets, audio and video tapes, seminars and conferences, and a quarterly newsletter."
http://www.solagroup.org/about/history.html

Van Kampen established "The Van Kampen Collection" which is one of the largest private collections of rare Bibles, scrolls, artifacts, and biblical manuscripts:
http://www.solagroup.org/vkc.html

Let JP provide proof about this further piece of dubious misinformation presented as "fact". How can anyone possibly trust JP as an expositor of the Bible with all this dishonesty about the pre-wrath history?

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you for that info Colin. I have now managed to trace Sign Ministries... They were set up in an administrative capacity as above. God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

Comment from an Ex-Insider Closing Stages:

https://closingstages.net/2016/08/13/when-good-men-do-nothing-they-are-no-longer-good/

There is actually a very long list of those of us who at one time were a part of that ministry, and even close to Jacob, who left, primarily over this issue of behavior. You might consider that there is a problem with para-church organizations like this where the Matthew 18 process is involved, because one cannot really follow through the whole process with an organization which is dictated by a single leader, hires and fires his own board (or ignores them at will), and cannot be brought before the whole church and removed from ministry. This is an issue with all such “independent” ministries, and there is actually quite a history within Moriel proper in this regard, but just because those involved have not published it on the Internet, your assumption that no one speaks up within that organization is not entirely correct. To be sure, this applies to some, but not all. In some of the responses to articles on this topic, replies have been left by what I would call the same historical pattern that has plagued that ministry for a very long time. Contrary to your broad statement that basically everything Jacob teaches is error, the initial attraction comes from a body of older teachings which are extremely good. (For instance, read or listen to “Abraham’s Journey” or “Simchat Torah”.) However, as they progress into more recent teachings, and experience a demeanor which is obviously becoming more and more angry, it becomes too much and they make a not surprising exit. With each cycle, Moriel and Jacob slowly diminish in overall numbers and influence. And those on the “inside” over time seem to inevitably experience this attrition as well. The difficulty is that many Christians do not feel it is appropriate for airing this in public, so it becomes problematic for many to determine at what point something needs to be publicized for the good of the sheep. The thing is, though, from an insider’s perspective who has left, the ministry has been steadily declining (although Jacob is in denial of this), and the only thing these days that drives new people to the Moriel website and FB pages is negative publicity given through postings like this, criticism of things with a large audience like John MacArthur or Calvary Chapel, or the back and forth caustic “debates” between Jacob and James White, neither of which is distinguishing themselves. It’s dying, and it will leave us faster if we just let it.

My response to the above comment is great sadness that people have been hurt, but thank God that some within Moriel have spoken out in the past. I also consider JP's earlier teaching to be good, but he seems to be going further and further into error these days with some very confusing teachings, especially about the 70th week of Daniel. Where I would depart from Ex-Insider is that we should "just let it die". There are people I know personally who are completely taken in by JP and they are in a dangerous position as we approach the 70th week. False teaching does need to be exposed (Ephesians 5:11).