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Wednesday, 10 August 2016

Moriel gets questioned.. Jacob Prasch's crooked response!!!

For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in soundg doctrine..... (Titus 1:7-9)

"Moriel gets questioned.. and we respond.."
https://www.moriel.org/component/k2/item/2680-moriel-gets-questioned-and-we-respond.html

Moriel: "Our view pre dates Pre Wrath in that Jacob Prasch, like various others, believed the rapture is between 6th & 7th seals etc. prior to the Pre Wrath position being crystallized by the books of Marvin Rosenthal and Robert Van Kampen..... It is nothing more than what was later called Pre Wrath that in common with Pre Trib holds that The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, and certain other more minor differences to do with the timing of the ministry on the Two Witnesses in Revelation  chapter 11. Intra Seal is a version of Pre Wrath and Pre Wrath has the same primary elements as Intra Seal. The two positions are  in essence not only very  similar or more accurately two variations of the same fundamental position although the Pneumatological differences are marked. 

Moriel and Jacob Prasch reject the concept new or further doctrinal revelation (Revelation 22:18). The scripture simply teaches an ever clearer understanding however of what is already revealed in God's Word concerning The Last days (Daniel 12: 4), which is the very meaning off the Greek term 'Apocalypsis'."

Reading Jacob Prasch's statement dated the 5th of August above, it is quite astonishing that he should claim that his belief that the rapture takes place between the sixth and seventh seals in the book of Revelation pre-dates the pre-wrath view. Let us do a little calculation shall we? Jacob Prasch claims that he became a Christian in February of 1972 through The Children of God cult. After leaving The Children of God he admits to getting caught up in various false teachings during the following five years.{1} That brings us to 1977. Robert Van Kampen taught and developed what is known today as the "pre-wrath" rapture during the 1970s, and Marvin Rosenthal eventually published his book The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church in 1990.{2} Is JP seriously expecting us to believe that he had all of his eschatology sorted out during the 1970's prior to Van Kampen and Rosenthall? There were two views of the rapture prior the 1970's: The classic post-tribulational view and Darby's false pre-tribulational view which became popular after the 1830s. Dispensationalist Robert Gundry also modified the post-trib position to take account of the 7th seal. I am not aware of anyone preaching a rapture in between the 6th and 7th seal of Revelation pre-dating Gundry, Van Kampen and Rosenthall, and yet JP says that he and some mysterious "others" believed this view. It does not add up does it? Perhaps this is JP's nod to his Irish descent since it is clearly a bit of Irish blarney! I do not like to call anyone an outright liar, but I do not know what else to call this piece of fiction!

I will not repeat the various questions put to Moriel. They are a conglomeration of dislocated statements which most people would find quite frustrating to read unless they had a particular interest. It has been suggested to me by more than one person that the whole article was "engineered" in order to generate confusion. The link to the article is at the top of this post for my readers to access the various questions if they so wish. 

But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase. (Daniel 12:4)

Apocalypsis means unveiling or revelation. The Book of Revelation i.e. The Apocalypse of John compliments and unseals Daniel, but further than that we must not go! (Revelation 22:18). Whatever "understanding" we may gain about the last days should always find support from the scriptures, and JP's "intra-seal" theory does not pass that test (1 John 4:1). We can gain confidence and "understanding" in that the Book of Daniel has been fulfilled up to this point in time historically e.g. Daniel's vision of the four beasts/four world empires, the coming of the Medo-Persian, Greek, and Roman empires, Alexander the Great, Antiochus Epiphanes etc.

As much as JP professes that pre-wrath and intra-seal are very similar, indeed they are not!

Basically JP has taken the ground-breaking research done by the original pre-wrath scholars and has corrupted it!!! 

Problematically, JP's intra-seal rapture theory differs from pre-wrath in that it identifies
the Holy Spirit as the Restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 and it demolishes grace for the entirety of the 70th week of Daniel. This idea about the Restrainer was the original idea of John Nelson Darby, a man, who in my view, was demonically inspired. In fact, JP has quite a lot in common with Darby - in particular JP's massive ego and his penchant for distorting the scriptures and inventing false doctrines. In Darby's case it was dispensationalism and pretribulationism. In JP's case it is "the reversal of Pentecost" and "the end of grace" during the 70th week of Daniel. Darby's aggressive cultish behaviour towards his detractors is legendary. Likewise, JP is well known for making demeaning statements and verbally bulling anyone in disagreement with his specific and particular "doctrines". There is nothing original about the work of either of these men when we examine their theology. Darby clandestinely stole his ideas from the Irvingites, whereas JP has stolen his ideas from the pre-wrath scholars and has corrupted their work. This is no small matter.. when JP talks about grace coming to an end during the 70th week of Daniel, he effectively changes the whole dynamic of the gospel. JP's defective exegesis demolishes grace and suppresses the gospel during the final seven years of history. I doubt very much whether the pre-wrath camp would view this as a minor difference!

The intra-seal view goes beyond what is written (1 Corinthians 4:6). As I have pointed out in a previous post, if we are in our right senses and have not been browbeaten by JP, we should consider the identity of the Restrainer as secondary. If it were primary, then I believe that it would be included in the scriptures! JP teaches this secondary question emphatically and prophetically as of primary importance, with phrases like "pay attention". Doesn't this contradict the statement: "Moriel and Jacob Prasch reject the concept new or further doctrinal revelation"? 

JP's "intra-seal" theory has more holes than a second hand dart board. I have published a lengthy post going through all of the problems it throws up on the link below {3}. I will very briefly point out a few of these problems here. 

*JP's use of the metaphor "the night" in the gospel of John is taken completely out of context.

We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. (John 9:4; 12:35 cf. John 8:12)

In John chapter 9, Jesus heals a man born blind. When he uses the metaphor of "the night", and the phrase "no man can work",  Jesus refers to his death. The term "day" above refers to the life and ministry of Jesus Christ, night is coming, meaning in this context his arrest and execution. Jesus referred to Himself as the light of the world (John 9:4). Jesus predicts his death: The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light (John 12:35). 

The night is also indicative of the last half of the 70th week (1 Thessalonians 5:2; Matthew 25:6; Luke 17:34), but without a primary meaning in John 9, we cannot apply the isolated phrase "no man can work" to the 70th week of Daniel exegetically. JP has spiritualised this phrase out of context since it cannot be established that 'the night' in John 9 refers to the tribulation from the peshet point of view.

* JP: "As translated by The New Testament Greek, Jesus clearly and directly refers to the 'Beginning of Birth pangs' as "Thelipsis" / TRIBULATION in John 16:21 .....in this same John chapter 16 in verses 20-22, Jesus speaks of His Second Coming as being proceeded by the Birth Pangs seen in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and as is illustrated in the vision of the woman in travail in Revelation chapter 12." {2}

Thlipsis in John 16:21 does not refer to persecution/tribulation at all, rather it refers to the disciples sorrow after Jesus' execution.{2} The scriptures themselves DO NOT refer to the entirety of the 70th week as tribulation as JP claims. It is important to notice that the beginning of birth pains/the four horsemen are WORLD WIDE PHENOMENA, they do not apply specifically to the tribulation of the church and they are not connected to the removal of the Restrainer. The text below clearly indicates that tribulation follows the first 3.5 years of world wide phenomena i.e. the beginning of birth pains: 

And Jesus answered them, See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. THEN they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death.....   (Matthew 24:4-8; cf. Mark 13:3-13; Revelation 12).  

* The two witnesses of Revelation 11:1-14 die and are resurrected during the second woe i.e. after the sixth trumpet is blown (Revelation 11:14). This demonstrates that they will prophesy for 1,260 days during the second half of the 70th week of Daniel. Their death occurs just before the seventh trumpet is blown i.e. just prior to the Day of the Lord when the bowls of God's wrath will be released. JP's view agrees with the pretribulational position that the two witnesses will minister during the first half of the 70th week.

For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. (2 Corinthians 11:14)

In the very next verse the Apostle Paul says: .....I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles (2 Corinthians 11:15). The tactics of JP as some kind of superior guru who will not be questioned is alarming, as is his habit of vilifying those who would take him to task. We should not assume that just because JP has been effective in exposing "charismania" that he has all the answers. The same scrutinization applies to JP just as much any other teacher (1 John 4:1 cf. Acts 17:11).

And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:14)




UPDATE 12TH AUGUST 2016

Just to clarify exactly what JP said about his views pre-dating pre-wrath, I quote him verbatim below. He is now furiously back-pedalling in a further rabid tirade in which he denounces me as a feminist and a liar. His claims of just three days ago certainly suggest very strongly to me that his views on the rapture pre-dated the pre-wrath postion, but I shall let you be the judge.

9th August 2016:

JP: "LONG BEFORE the term 'pre-wrath' was crystallized... I and others like me.. BEFORE pre-wrath came into vogue, BEFORE the term was coined, I believed that the rapture was between the sixth and seventh seal.. I and others have ALWAYS believed that the rapture will not take place until the faithful church knows who the Antichrist is .. I believed it BEFORE pre-wrath was even termed 'pre wrath' and believed it BEFORE those books that launched pre-wrath were written." {4}

For further details please visit:
http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/jacob-prasch-moriel-ministries-and-his.html 

{1} https://www.moriel.org/about/19-general/5992-about-jacob-prasch.html
{1} https://www.moriel.org/online-sermons/23-sermons-in-english/5887-christian-cults.html 
{2} https://www.raptureready.com/who/Robert_Van_Kampen.html
{3} http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/jacob-prasch-rapture-holy-spirit-and.html
{4} https://youtu.be/V3iu1t6kh-I

8 comments:

Irv said...

Treena, my head is still reeling (or is "swimming" the more appropriate word?) after going over your latest illuminations! I really think that you should put all of your immense research into book form since you are truly on the cutting edge when it comes to the fascinating world of Biblical prophecy, and anyone who disregards your insights is as blind as he is close-minded. Your reference to the Irvingites should at the very least unsettle more than a few Darbyists, for it can now be shown that John Darby wasn't the "father" of anything including the glorious, money-making, endtime fantasy known as the "any-moment, pretribulation rapture"!

Treena Gisborn said...

God bless you Irv and thank you so much. I have neither the resources or the expertise to put together a book - but that doesn't matter at all. Thank God - I do have a voice to expose false teachings and that is all I want to do.

colin said...

Jacob's "jiggery pokery" or "chicanery"; call it what you will, is simply breathtaking! Does he really know what he is now saying?
I recall, when he was a regular on RTV, he was well received by many viewers (ourselves included) because he spoke against the Word Faith money preachers, among many other things.

However, if the apostate and ecumenical leaders at RTV (Conder, Pettie & co) were correct about anything (I am NOT defending them!), it was at least in their assessment of Jacob's character traits!

Putting a book together isn't as difficult, or expensive as it appears. Many do it through Amazon, I have written about ten so far (NONE yet published!). But, I would remind Irv that Treena and I have a peculiar interest in JP/Moriel, (being hitherto greatly influenced by his ministry) but as for a wider appeal; is there any? As long as we are "fellow helpers to the truth" 3 John 1.8, then who knows where the Lord may lead any of us?

God bless.

Treena Gisborn said...

..and I thought it was all about truth Colin.. I can't pretend to be hurt or surpirsed by JP's antics, it has happened too many times by too many teachers. I am surprised that he thinks we are all so stupid as to accept his story though. God bless.

Tim Snider said...

I would love to see you publish a book on end time prophecies, particularly as they relate to Daniel's 70th week and the rapture. You are such an accomplished researcher and have your hand on the pulse of prophetic revelation as it relates to the days in which we live. Perhaps you don't claim to have "expertise", some like myself would take exception to that and feel like you are indeed gifted with enormous energy and God-called enthusiasm to take on the TRUTH deficit so prevalent in our ecclesiastical circles today. Westbow Press (a Division of Thomas Nelson publishers) published mine and I'm sure with your extensive, coherent and prophetically relevant works as examples of your expertise in the field, would love to take a look at a sampling of your material. As difficult as it is to get published, I wouldn't encourage you if I didn't think your work was as thorough, documented and truth-oriented as I know it to be...God bless you dear girl and please keep on keeping on. The world needs your message...Tim

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you Tim you are very generous and encouraging. I will give it some thought. God bless you.

Anonymous said...

You are a very naughty young lady and should be in the kitchen, not embarrassing delusional men.

Treena Gisborn said...

I know W.. but my cooking is terrible and my knitting isn't up to much either.. God bless