Sunday Morning Service
I have attempted to broach the question of the post-tribulation rapture view with Good Fight Ministries previously, in particular their view of the seals, trumpets and bowls. My discussion with GFM on the below link exposed a blind spot in their understanding of the timing of the rapture as it relates to the cosmic disturbances in Matthew 24:29-31. In fact all three synoptic gospels confirm the proximity of the rapture to the cosmic disturbances in Revelation 6:12-14. Although I am on board with Joe Schimmel (Blessed Hope Chapel/GFM) in many respects, their post-trib rapture view does not stand up to close scrutiny. (Acts 17:11).
Good Fight Ministries Scewed Post-trib Rapture View
Why is this question important?
How can post-trib proponents successfully oppose the pre-tribulation rapture when their own position has obvious flaws?
Sadly the post-trib position does nothing to dispel the confusion surrounding the controversial subject of the timing of the rapture. To their discredit, the post-trib camp cannot defend their position biblically. This post is more detailed than my previous efforts, in the hope that Joe Schimmel and his team will study the scriptures rather than argue their position from preconceived ideas and eisegesis. (2 Timothy 2:15).
According to Joe Schimmel, the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl correspond to one another i.e. they are the same events. Joe mentions an unreliable third century church father by the name of Victorinus. Apparently Victorinus was the first of the Church Fathers to ascertain the basic notion of repetition – that the Apocalypse is not one uninterrupted and developing line of prophecy, but rather that various subdivisions run parallel with each other. And he saw that the theme of the soon coming Second Advent was a continuous thread of thought throughout the Apocalypse.{1} Joe Schimmel "..he (Victorinus) talks about a recapitulation, and how the bowls overlap.. they are not written consecutively.. but whatever you believe about that, ultimately you need to understand this.. that prior to Christs coming in Revelation chapter 19, the Bride has been made ready.."
Joe Schimmel's phrase "whatever you believe about that" assigns the subject to a non-essential category, i.e. whatever we happen believe about the timing of the rapture will not ultimately affect our salvation. In the case of pre-trib view I do not agree. There is a distinct possibility that pre-trib believers will "fall away" during the great tribulation. As such there is an inescapable correlation between the pre-trib rapture view and salvation. (Matthew 24:10; 1 Timothy 4:1). Moreover, there are significant reasons why the post-trib/prewrath debate should not be trivialized. If we fall short in this respect, we may unintentionally put a stumbling block in the way of our pre-trib friends, and also those who throw their hands in the air and say that they are "pan-trib" (it will all pan out i.e. those who underrate the significance of the rapture question). (Leviticus 19:14; 2 Corinthians 6:3). A growing number of Christians now adhere to the prewrath rapture position, having studied the scriptures and rightly divided the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).
Joe Schimmel rightly says that it is imperative that we have a right understanding of the timing of events in the book of Revelation. He says: "We are warned not to add or take away from this book, we dare not trifle with the outline that Jesus gave us.. God does not want us to add or take away from just one verse of the book of Revelation.. When you come up with a theology, or an eschatology ~ an eschatological construct that destroys the entire book... think what that does to God's heart.."
I do not claim that the post-trib rapture view destroys the whole book of Revelation. However, this view is problematic and potentially damaging for the reasons outlined above. When scripture is misinterpreted it is often the thin end of the wedge. (1 Corinthians 4:6). CH Spurgeon: "It is knowing the difference between right and almost right. ... The devil likes to mix his lies with just enough of the truth to make it look plausible."
Victorinus: "The Apocalypse here shows, therefore, that these reapers, and shepherds, and labourers, are the angels. And the trumpet is the word of power. And although the same thing recurs in the phials, still it is not said as if it occurred twice, but because what is decreed by the Lord to happen shall be once for all; for this cause it is said twice. What, therefore, He said too little in the trumpets, is here found in the phials. We must not regard the order of what is said, because frequently the Holy Spirit, when He has traversed even to the end of the last times, returns again to the same times, and fills up what He had before failed to say. Nor must we look for order in the Apocalypse; but we must follow the meaning of those things which are prophesied. Therefore in the trumpets and phials is signified either the desolation of the plagues that are sent upon the earth, or the madness of Antichrist himself, or the cutting off of the peoples, or the diversity of the plagues, or the hope in the kingdom of the saints, or the ruin of states, or the great overthrow of Babylon, that is, the Roman state." {2}
The sixth seal:
When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, (Revelation 6:12).
Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31).
Matthew 24 specifically locates the cosmic disturbances of Revelation 6 immediately after the great tribulation. The rapture becomes imminent after the cosmic disturbances of the sixth seal i.e. it occurs between and the sixth seventh seal. The sixth seal indicates the impending wrath of God, specifically, the chronological sets of seven trumpet and and seven bowl judgements following the seventh seal.
The seventh seal:
Revelation 8 follows an explicit sequence of events:~ The Lamb opens the seventh seal and there is silence in heaven for about half an hour. (v1)
~ Seven trumpets are given to the angels. (v2)
~ The seven angels prepare to blow the trumpets. (v6)
~ The first angel blows his trumpet. (v7).
~ The second to the fourth trumpets are sounded. (v8-12)
~ The remaining three trumpets are about to be sounded. (v13)
This passage is unequivocal. Common sense tells us that the sixth seal precedes the seventh seal and that the trumpets follow the opening of the seventh seal in chronological order. How does Joe Schimmel come up with the conclusion that the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet are the same event?
When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them. The first angel blew his trumpet, and there followed hail and fire, mixed with blood, and these were thrown upon the earth. And a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up. (Revelation 8-1-7).
There is an increasing intensity in the judgements as the seals, trumpets and bowls are discharged. The seals release natural events: sword, famine and pestilence, culminating in the sixth seal "great earthquake" and the cosmic disturbances, indicating that "the great day of their wrath" is at hand. (Revelation 6:12,17). The seven trumpets differ from the seals in that they are supernatural events dispensed by angels. Note the phrases in Revelation 8: thrown upon the earth, thrown into the sea, a great star fell from heaven, a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars. The three woes indicate even greater intensity. When the fifth angel sounds his trumpet a star falls from heaven to earth. The fifth angel opens the shaft of the bottomless pit releasing demonic "locusts" that torture humans for five months. (Revelation 9:1-7). The sixth trumpet releases four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind. (Revelation 9:15). The seventh trumpet: ..but that in the days of the trumpet call to be (μέλλῃ) sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. (Revelation 10:7). μέλλω = 3195 méllō – properly, at the very point of acting; ready, 'about to happen.' {3} The intensity of God's wrath upon the godless increases when the bowls are poured out on the earth. (Revelation 16:1-20). A plain reading of the text suggests a quick chronological succession of events.
The Fifth Seal Martyrs
This passage indicates that the wrath of God is yet to be discharged. As such, the trumpet and bowl judgments cannot occur before the fifth seal is opened.
There are various additional problems associated with the post-trib view that I have not mentioned in this post. I recommend Alan Kurschner's website for a full assessment of the difficulties associated with this view.
(See Further Links).
I would like to see Joe Schimmel and his team specifically address the problems associated with their view. It seems odd that Joe has not applied his usual expertise/exegesis in this area. Inexplicably he offers nothing concrete to substantiate his claims for a post-trib rapture.
2. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0712.htm
3. https://biblehub.com/greek/3195.htm
Further Links
https://www.alankurschner.com/2014/02/22/seals-trumpets-bowls-at-the-same-time-or-one-after-the-other-i-e-concurrent-recapitulation-or-consecutive-https://www.alankurschner.com/2015/06/04/seals-trumpets-bowls-concurrent-recapitulation-or-consecutive-progressive-part-2-of-2-ep-37/
progressive/https://www.alankurschner.com/2017/08/10/articles-for-posttribulationism-to-consider/
https://www.alankurschner.com/2014/02/22/seals-trumpets-bowls-at-the-same-time-or-one-after-the-other-i-e-concurrent-recapitulation-or-consecutive-https://www.alankurschner.com/2015/06/04/seals-trumpets-bowls-concurrent-recapitulation-or-consecutive-progressive-part-2-of-2-ep-37/
progressive/https://www.alankurschner.com/2017/08/10/articles-for-posttribulationism-to-consider/
https://www.alankurschner.com/2020/09/05/3-key-reasons-why-posttribbers-are-becoming-prewrath/?fbclid=IwAR0DBb_Mzw0_SRN9uxi5GI69rtNhaRBt3VcfICoTAOCFnYd6CBhypNH9gRs
https://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/emails/prewrathposttrib.html
https://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/emails/prewrathposttrib.html
No comments:
Post a Comment