JOE SCHIMMEL: TERTULLIAN VICTORINUS AND TRIBULATION

 (5) Rev Series: What, When and How Long is the Day of the Lord?- Part 2 - YouTube

Below are some further thoughts on Joe's sermon on The Day of the Lord.

Joe Schimmel really should give up the habit of quoting certain unreliable Church Fathers in order to promote the post-trib rapture. The early Church Fathers are a very useful source in order to prove that the church will face the Antichrist, but they do not specify when precisely the rapture will occur. Joe's view that the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl are simultaneous events is pure eisegesis. There is no evidence whatsoever that this is the case. Joe's attempt to prove that the early Church Fathers believed in what he refers to as the "classical historical premillennial rapture view" (i.e. post-trib), is problematic. Like the mid-trib view, post-trib is fast becoming obsolete due to the research of modern prewrath scholars whose questions post-trib teachers are unable to answer. Those of us who are interested in communicating in truths do not need to resort to ancient unreliable sources in order to demonstrate the prewrath position. (2 Timothy 3:16). I will apply the common criticism that is usually levelled against the pre-trib camp: There is not one single verse of scripture that supports the post-trib view.

Why does Joe quote Victorinus, a very confused so called "Church Father" who no-one of any note regards as reliable? In this particular video, Joe quotes Tertullian's reference to "the last day". We might assume that compared with Victorinus, Tertullian was sound in his faith. The answer is yes and no. Tertullian practiced extreme asceticism and some time before 210 AD he became a Montanist. In my view, his writings are protracted and tedious, and there are some issues with his theology. 

Tertullian's Skewed Rapture View (?)

Tertullian: "..before we put off the garment of the flesh, we wish to be clothed with the celestial glory of immortality. Now the privilege of this favour awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we too shall ourselves be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." {1}  

If I have understood Tertullian correctly, he taught that those Christians who are alive at the Parousia will die instantaneously in order to qualify to meet the Lord in the air. If this is correct then he contradicts 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51. 

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

What did Tertullian mean by "the last day"?   

Tertullian:  "..our prayers are directed towards the end of this world, to the passing away thereof at the great day of the Lord — of His wrath and vengeance — the last day, which is hidden (from all), and known to none but the Father, although announced beforehand by signs and wonders, and the dissolution of the elements, and the conflicts of nations."  {1}

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:39-40, 44, 54 cf. John 11:24). 

The phrase "the last day" only occurs in John. Elsewhere it is called "the day of the Lord", "the great day", "the day of the Lord's wrath &c. These slightly different nuances used by different authors all describe "the day of the Lord" in some sense.

Post-trib writers define the tribulation period in a generic sense as the entire present age, or more specifically all the events leading up to Armageddon. However the scriptures make a definite distinction between tribulation and wrath. (Matthew 24:29). Joe's mindset that "the day of the Lord's wrath" must be a literal twenty-four hour period of time is an assumption. The prewrath position is that the church age comes to an end on "the last day" i.e. the rapture. ..concerning that day and hour no one knows (Matthew 24:26-34). On the last day a shift occurs and events move from tribulation ~ to resurrection (rapture) ~ to the onset of God's wrath. In other words, "the day of God's wrath" is an ongoing event. It appears that "the day of the Lord" continues in some sense throughout the millennial period. 

Joe's persistence in continuing to refer to the entire 70th week of Daniel as "the tribulation" is unacceptable. In my view this is the thin end of the wedge. Be careful! This is how error and false teaching creeps in. We don't need to be especially "technical" to divide the 70th week into the beginning of birth pains (Matthew 24:8), and the tribulation, we simply need to be scriptural! The tribulation is always associated with the abomination of desolation event at the mid point of Daniel's 70th week. (Matthew 24:15-28; Daniel 9:27).

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. (Matthew 24:9,21 cf. Daniel 9:27).

Joe makes much of "rightly dividing the Word of truth" in this video. (2 Timothy 2:15). This is something we all need to take to heart.

1.  CHURCH FATHERS: On the Resurrection of the Flesh (Tertullian) (newadvent.org)

Further Links

Montanism - New World Encyclopedia

WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: JOE SCHIMMEL BLESSED HOPE CHAPEL: VICTORINUS IS UNRELIABLE (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)

WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION FALLACY (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)

Articles for Posttribulationism to Consider | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES (alankurschner.com)

JOE SCHIMMEL: THE DAY OF THE LORD?

Wednesday Night BIble Study - YouTube

How long is the Day of the Lord? 

Joe Schimmel has postponed his prewrath/post-trib rapture comparison. I think this is a good thing because (hopefully) it will give him time to consider the subject in more depth.

Joe qualifies the post-trib view by calling it "the classical historical premillennial view". This is an assumption. There is no evidence that early church specified the rapture in "classical" post-trib terms. I don't want to be ungracious to Joe, but I feel that giving credit to Victorinus' recapitulation view of the bowl judgements is disingenuous. Victorinus was an utterly unreliable and confused third century church father. I have expanded my original post on this subject. {1} 

I do not consider the differences between prewrath and post-trib to be a salvation issue per se. However, the subject is critical because damage and confusion arises from wrong teaching, and this in turn gives ammunition to the pre-trib camp and other false views. In my experience one error inevitably leads to further errors.

Joe Schimmel: "Our prewrath brethren believe that the tribulation ends with the sixth seal.. they believe that the trumpets and the bowls are not really part of the tribulation period but God's wrath, and that we are out right before that... What they are calling the day of the Lord is the tribulation still.. prewrath is not truly post-trib because what they call the day of the Lord is the tribulation period." {2} 

Above: Joe teaches that the tribulation will continue right up until the battle of Armageddon when Jesus returns to earth with the saints. However the evidence that the tribulation will end before the wrath of God is poured out, is, in my view, overwhelming. 

According to Joe, the sixth seal in Revelation 6:15-17 is a picture of the very end. He also equates Matthew 24:39-30 with Armageddon (Revelation 19). Apart from the fact that Matthew 24 does not describe the battle scene of Revelation 19, we have to ignore the stated chronology of the trumpets and bowls that indicate a clear sequence of events. 

Revelation 6:12-14 draws from the celestial portents described in Joel 2:31.  

The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. (Joel 2:31).

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31).

The great tribulation is cut short and is followed by the gathering of the elect (the rapture). (Matthew 24:22,31). 

The Day of the Lord.. one literal day?

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:39-40, 44, 54 cf. John 11:24). The phrase "the last day" only occurs in John. Elsewhere it is called "the day of the Lord", "the great day" &c.

Clearly "the last day" is resurrection language and refers to the rapture. The prewrath position is that the church age comes to an end on "the last day" i.e. the rapture. Subsequently a shift occurs and events move from tribulation ~ to resurrection ~ to the onset of God's wrath. In other words, "the day of the Lord" is an ongoing event, it does not suddenly end at the rapture. As Joe says, there is evidence that the day of the Lord continues through the millennial period. 

We need to be wary about translating "yom" out of context as a single day. Rodney Whitefield: "Yom relates to the concept of time. Yom is not just for day, days, but for time in general. How yom is translated depends on the context of its use with other words in the sentence around it, using hermeneutics." {3} 

The following video from Alan Kurschner is important for post-trib believers to consider:

(3) The Bride Comes with the New Jerusalem BEFORE the Millennium - YouTube

1. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: JOE SCHIMMEL BLESSED HOPE CHAPEL: VICTORINUS IS UNRELIABLE (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
2. (2) Wednesday Night Bible Study - YouTube
3. Untitled-2 (godandscience.org)

JOE SCHIMMEL: PREWRATH VERSUS POST-TRIB RAPTURE VIEWS

(2) Wednesday Night Bible Study - YouTube

Next Wednesday Joe Schimmel will contrast the prewrath and post-trib rapture views in 'The Day of the Lord - Part 2'. 

Joe Schimmel: "Our prewrath brethren believe that the tribulation ends with the sixth seal.. they believe that the trumpets and the bowls are not really part of the tribulation period but God's wrath, and that we are out right before that... What they are calling the day of the Lord is the tribulation still.. prewrath is not truly post-trib because what they call the day of the Lord is the tribulation period."

It will be interesting to see how Joe Schimmel will reconcile his views with Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 6:12-17. Matthew 24:29 specifically states that the sixth seal cosmic disturbances occur immediately after the tribulation. I think next weeks video will be important for believers to consider. 

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.' At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31).

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?” (Revelation 6:12-17).

JOE SCHIMMEL'S TRIBULATION DISTORTIONS

What, When and How Long is the Day of the Lord?- Part 1
(23) Wednesday Night BIble Study - YouTube

I have to point out with a heavy heart that Joe Schimmel's latest message about the post-trib rapture was one of the most distorted messages I have ever heard. Why he feels that he has to define the entire 70th week of Daniel as "the tribulation" is beyond me, unless it is to appease the pre-trib camp. The bible should define our terms, not the erroneous views of those who distort the scriptures.

Bible teachers need to be very clear.. the first half of the 70th week is not the tribulation. It is critical that God's Word is not misrepresented. (Proverbs 30:6; Revelation 22:18).

 
Not one single verse of scripture backs up the seven year tribulation fallacy.

The scriptures tell us repeatedly, in no uncertain terms, that the great tribulation will last for 3.5 years:

Daniel 7:25 He (the Antichrist) shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. (3.5 years).
Revelation 11:2 ..but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.
Revelation 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.
Revelation 12:5-6 ..and the woman (Israel) fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. This period coincides with what is also known as "Jacob's Trouble". (Daniel 12:1, Jeremiah 30:7).
Matthew 24:15-21 ..when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” The abomination of desolation will occur halfway through the final seven year period, often referred to as Daniel’s 70th week. {1}

Although he didn't name him, for the second time, Joe Schimmel referred to early "church father" Victorinus as his only source in order to substantiate his recapitulation view regarding the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl. If anyone will take the time to read Victorinus they will discover that his theology is deeply flawed. Joe Schimmel really should know better! 

A Sample of Victorinus' Flawed (allegorical) Theology:

And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair. The sun becomes as sackcloth; that is, the brightness of doctrine will be obscured by unbelievers.

And the entire moon became as blood. By the moon of blood is set forth the Church of the saints as pouring out her blood for Christ. 

And the stars fell to the earth. The falling of the stars are the faithful who are troubled for Christ's sake.

Even as a fig-tree casts her untimely figs. The fig-tree, when shaken, loses its untimely figs — when men are separated from the Church by persecution.

And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up. For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. {2}

Joe Schimmel is doing no-one any favours with his continued, and I might say, willful distortion of the scriptures. He would do better not to teach on this subject at all rather than give such a warped message based on eisegesis. The various problems associated with the post-trib rapture have been pointed out to Joe Schimmel and his team on a number of occasions. They have yet to address these issues. Joe Schimmel would do far better to go back to the scriptures and take the time to reconsider his position. If I remember correctly, his recapitulation view is based on a (supposed) revelation he received from the Lord in his early days as a Christian. He was obviously genuinely convinced by this revelation, but I say, does it correspond with the scriptures? (1 John 4:1).

1. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION FALLACY (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
2. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: JOE SCHIMMEL BLESSED HOPE CHAPEL: VICTORINUS IS UNRELIABLE (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)

Further Link

Seals, Trumpets, Bowls – At the Same Time or One After the Other? (i.e. Concurrent-Recapitulation or Consecutive-Progressive?) (alankurschner.com)

SAM ADAMS INDEPENDENCE BAPTIST CHURCH: PRESUPPOSITION AND ERROR

Sam Adams Independence Baptist Church
(36) Sam Adams - The Judgment Seat of Christ - YouTube

Sam Adams: "The book of Revelation is not given in chronological order.. The three series of judgements -- the seal judgements of Revelation 6, the trumpet judgements in chapters 8 through 11, and the vial judgments over in chapters 15 to 16. Those three series of judgements are actually three separate visons of the entire tribulation period. When we compare the sixth seal to the seventh trump and the seven vial judgments, they are all the same judgement, all the same event.. which ends the tribulation..  (21:00 mark)

Sam Adams does not teach the book of Revelation by exegetical principles. Instead he relies upon unverifiable assumptions, and in doing so, he imposes his own ideas upon the text. Adams is not a competent teacher of bible prophecy. If he had studied the book of Revelation at all, he would know that the great tribulation is cut short immediately before the sixth seal cosmic disturbances commence. (Matthew 24:22). Even a cursory reading of the scriptures reveals this basic information! Adams should refer to the scriptures in order to test his various skewed post-trib presuppositions. (Acts 17:11; 1 John 4:1).  

The sixth seal of Revelation 6, also described in Matthew 24, releases the cosmic disturbances. At this point, the wrath of God upon the ungodly becomes imminent. These events follow the great tribulation. (Matthew 24:21-22).

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.' (Matthew 24:29). 

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. (Revelation 6:12-14).

And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?” (Revelation 6:16-17).

The book of Revelation is chronological from chapters 4-12. Chapter 12 onwards also also follows a chronological sequence. Both of these sections include parentheses. 

When we study the book of Revelation correctly, we find that the rapture precedes the opening of the seventh seal of Revelation 8:

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.. These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation.. (Revelation 7:9-14).  The seventh seal of Revelation 8 follows this event.. 

Let us do exactly as Adams suggests and compare the sixth seal, the seventh seal, the seventh trumpet and the seven bowl judgments:

The Sixth Seal: Revelation 6:12-17 

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

The above verses describe a devastating global event involving a massive earthquake so severe that every mountain and island was moved from its place. Coincidentally, there appears to be a literal shaking of the heavenly bodies.

The prophet Joel describes the cosmic disturbances of Revelation 6 as portents of the coming wrath: And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord. (Joel 2:30-31 cf. Acts 2:19-20). {1}

The Seventh Seal: Revelation 8:1-2

When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets. 

When the seventh seal is opened God prepares the seven angels to unleash the trumpet judgements. It is therefore not the sixth seal, but the seventh seal that initiates the day of the Lord i.e. the wrath of God via the trumpet and subsequent seventh trumpet/bowl judgements. Post-trib teachers have to discard the numbering of the seals given in the scriptures in order to shoehorn this verse into their simultaneous interpretation. 

7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass. 8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. 10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters. (Revelation 8:7-10).

Note: The first two trumpet judgements initiate the destruction of one third of everything living on the earth. 

12Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun and moon and stars were struck. A third of the stars were darkened, a third of the day was without light, and a third of the night as well. (Revelation 8:12).

Revelation 8:12 may seem to align with Revelation 6:12-17, but there are differences. Revelation 8 refers to a third of the sun moon and stars, as against the phenomena described in Revelation 6: the sun, the whole moon etc. (Revelation 6:12-17).

The Seventh trumpet: Revelation 11:15-19 

15:Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”.... 19:Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

The Seven Bowls: Revelation 15:1; 16:1-17

Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished. (Revelation 15:1).

Revelation 16

1Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”
2So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.
3The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing died that was in the sea.
4The third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood. 5And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say,
“Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was,
for you brought these judgments.
6For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
and you have given them blood to drink.
It is what they deserve!”
7And I heard the altar saying,
“Yes, Lord God the Almighty,
true and just are your judgments!”
8The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.
10The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish 11and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.
12The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15(“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
17The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. 21And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.

In Revelation 6:17 every mountain and island was moved from its place, whereas the seventh bowl of Revelation 16:18-20 describes an even more devastating earthquake: no mountains were to be found. There are no cosmic disturbances mentioned at all in the relevant seventh seal passages. (Revelation 11-16). We do see repetition in Revelation 11:19 and Revelation 16:18-21 regarding the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl, but nothing in exegetical terms identifies the sixth seal as the seventh seal/seventh trumpet/seven bowls. We have to make a considerable eisegetical leap in order to come to this conclusion. In other words, to interpret similarities and contextual analogies with precisely identical events is very poor exegesis. 

Adams appears to have made the mistake of placing his confidence in the flawed second hand teachings his post-trib mentors rather than taking the trouble to study the scriptures for himself. (2 Timothy 2:15).

When we hold a view based upon our presuppositions, and that view is problematic, then it is necessary to humble ourselves and go back to the scriptures. In this kind of situation there are two choices:

1. We can be stiff necked and resist the Holy Spirit. (Acts 7:51; Proverbs 29:1).

2. We can carefully examine the scriptures and test whether our doctrine can be defended biblically. 

The latter choice is always the right way forward in God's will. To do otherwise is to rely on our own presuppositions and to distort the scriptures at our own peril! (Revelation 22:18-19). We all have a responsibility to re-examine, and if necessary unlearn certain doctrines that do not stand the test of the scriptures. (Deuteronomy 13:3; Psalm 119:30; 1 Corinthians 11:19). The twice repeated phrase "I have this against you" in the book of Revelation should serve as a deterrent to those who think that they can rely upon their own presuppositions and distort the word of God! (Revelation 2:4, 20).

If post-trib teachers really are interested in helping those believers who are confused and/or deceived about the rapture question, then they have a responsibility to dispel confusion and provide clarity. (1 Corinthians 14:8). The repercussions for the body of Christ are weighty!

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:9-14). 

So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. (Romans 14:12 cf. 2 Corinthians 5:10; James 3:1).

1.  Strong's Greek: 4250. πρίν (prin) -- before (biblehub.com)

Further Links:

Seals, Trumpets, Bowls – At the Same Time or One After the Other? (i.e. Concurrent-Recapitulation or Consecutive-Progressive?) (alankurschner.com)

(39) 7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture (Full Movie) - YouTube

WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: JOE SCHIMMEL BLESSED HOPE CHAPEL: VICTORINUS IS UNRELIABLE (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)

WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: GOOD FIGHT MINISTRIES SKEWED POST-TRIB RAPTURE VIEW (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)

ANDY WOODS: PRE-TRIB RAPTURE UNDER ATTACK

Rapture Under Attack! Pastors’ Point of View Episode 44

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFfg24z6-

Pseudo Ephraim (c. 374-627)

In the above video, staunch pre-trib rapture teacher Andy Woods cites Pseudo Ephraim as a pre-Darby source for the pre-trib rapture. Author and researcher Dave MacPherson was a reliable critic of the pre-trib rapture view. Below is an excerpt from an article he wrote demonstrating how Pseudo Ephraim was dishonestly misinterpreted by pre-trib rapture teachers Grant Jeffrey and Thomas Ice. 

Pseudo Ephraim: "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." The phrase "taken to the Lord" was taken out of context by Jeffrey and Ice to mean the pre-trib rapture.

Dave MacPherson: "In Section 2, P-E (Pseudo Ephraim) says that the only event that's 'imminent' is 'the advent of the wicked one' (that is, Antichrist). Nevertheless, Grant Jeffrey in his 1995 book, FINAL WARNING, had the audacity to claim that P-E 'began with the Rapture using the word 'imminent' and added in the next sentence that 'Ephraem used the word 'imminent' to describe the Rapture.' (If he and other P-E promoters can look at a coming of Antichrist and see a coming of 'Christ,' is it any wonder that in his endtime view folks will look at Antichrist and see 'Christ'?

Dr. Paul Alexander, the leading authority whose book inspired the P-E claim, is portrayed in Jeffrey's book, FINAL WARNING, as 'perhaps the most authoritative scholar on the writings of the early Byzantine Church.' But this misleading statement, designed to make readers think that Professor Alexander supports the P-E claim, covers up the fact that this world famous scholar sees not even a smidgen of pretrib in the same Medieval writer!

In fact, Alexander writes that the phrase 'taken to the Lord' (which has become a bonanza for pretrib history revisionists) means "participate at least in some measure in beatitude.' While Jeffrey and Ice do include this 'beatitude' phrase, all P-E promoters carefully avoid revealing that the Catholic doctrine of 'beatitude,' according to the NEW CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, has to do with 'the highest acts of virtue that can be performed in this life' - works on earth and not being raptured off earth! (Elsewhere in his sermon P-E repeats the importance of doing 'penance,' because of 'our sins,' so that church members will be 'sustained' during the tribulation!)

In fact (again), Alexander has two summaries (textual and outline), in chronological order, of P-E's endtime events. And guess what. Alexander demonstrates both times that P-E saw only one future coming ('Second Coming of Christ"'for the 'punishment of the Antichrist') which follows (!) the great tribulation ('tribulatio magna lasting three and a half years') - claim-smashing summaries that self-serving promoters, with malice aforethought, have jointly swept under their 'secret rapture' rug! {1}

    

The Day of the Lord 

The phrase that Andy Woods repeats during this video is that the church is not appointed to wrath i.e. the church will escape wrath of God via the pre-trib rapture. (1 Thessalonians 5:9). He takes the position that the entire 70th week of Daniel is the tribulation period and defines this period as "wrath". The first time the term "great tribulation" is mentioned is Matthew 24: 21,29. This refers to the Abomination of Desolation, the event that takes place at the mid point of the 70th week. When the Antichrist takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God, he unleashes terrible persecution, upon both Jews and Christians. (2 Thessalonians 2:4). This is the persecution of the Antichrist, not the wrath of God. As explained many times, thlipsis (tribulation) and orge (wrath) are distinct terms used in the scriptures describing separate events. The scriptures refer to the events preceding the great tribulation during the first half of the 70th week as the beginning of birth pains i.e. ~ wars and rumours of wars  ~famines and earthquakes. (Matthew 24:8). To make up our own definitions when the scriptures make a clear distinction is eisegesis. The only time that wrath (orge) is specifically mentioned in relation to the 70th week is the period known in the scriptures as "the day of the Lord" when the sixth seal is broken.

For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?” (Revelation 6:17).

Alford observes that this of itself should be sufficient to keep commentators right in confining their interpretation of this seal to the last judgment. (cf. Joel 1:15; Joel 2:1, 2; Acts 2:20; Jude 1:6). {2} 

In 1 Thessalonians 5 the phrase the Day of the Lord refers to an unknown period of time and not a literal 24 hour day for obvious reasons. (Revelation 9:5). This period refers to God's wrath as it is poured out during the seventh seal trumpet and bowl judgements described in the book of Revelation and referred to a number of times in the scriptures. (e.g. Acts 2:20; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10; Isaiah 2:12, 13:6-9, 34:8, Jeremiah 46:10; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1-31, 3:14; Amos 5:18-20; Zephaniah 1:1-18 etc.)

Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; (Isaiah 13:9-11 cf. Revelation 6:12-17).

After this I looked, and the sanctuary of the tent of witness in heaven was opened, and out of the sanctuary came the seven angels with the seven plagues, clothed in pure, bright linen, with golden sashes around their chests. And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever, and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished. (Revelation 15:5-7).

Matthew 24 and 25

The speculation that the Olivet Discourse applies exclusively to Israel originated with cult leader John Nelson Darby in the 1830s in a ploy to facilitate his flawed pre-trib rapture framework. Unfortunately much of the Western Church has been subjected to this false teaching by those who have much to gain from it. Darby's domineering personality, his pseudo intellectualism and his abstruse style of writing obscured his eschatological perversions for a number of spiritually naïve believers. However Darby did not fool the most discerning of his contemporaries such as BW Newton, SP Tregelles, George Mueller and Charles Spurgeon. Spurgeon: "If the author would write in plain English his readers would probably discover that there is nothing very valuable in his remarks." {3} 

The disciples asked Jesus a twofold question:

As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3).

Darby: "..what would be the sign of His coming and of the end of the age. They class together the destruction of the temple, the coming of Christ, and the end of the age. We must observe, that here the end of the age is the end of the period during which Israel was subject to the law under the old covenant: a period which was to cease, giving place to the Messiah and to the new covenant. Observe also that God's government of the earth is the subject, and the judgments that should take place at Christ's coming, which would put an end to the existing age..

Besides this, other circumstances prove, if further proof were needed, that it is the Jewish remnant who are in question, and not the assembly. We know that all believers are to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. They will afterwards return with Him. But here there will be false Christs on the earth, and people will say, 'He is here in the wilderness,' 'He is there in the secret chambers.' But the saints who shall be caught up and return with the Lord have nothing at all to do with false Christs on earth, since they will go up to heaven to be with Him there, before He returns to the earth; while it is easy to understand that the Jews, who are expecting earthly deliverance, should be liable to such temptations, and that they should be deceived by them unless kept by God Himself."  {4}

In the minds of the disciples, the destruction of the temple in 70AD and the end of the age (aeon) were concurrent events. Darby misrepresents the term the end of the age in Matthew 24:3 and applies it to the end of the old covenant under the law, thereby limiting it to the Jewish remnant. However the term is never used in this context in the scriptures. In context "the end of the age" in Matthew 24 has a widespread application for future generations of believers and "all nations". (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15). To limit the relevance of Matthew 24 and 25 to the Jews is unconscionable.

 

The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. (Matthew 13:30-40,49 cf. Matthew 24:3; 28:20; 1 Peter 1:5).  

“See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all 3nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:6-14)

BW Newton made a critical distinction regarding who is specifically addressed in Matthew 24 and 25. Below are some excerpts from a document written by Newton published by the Brethren Archive. {5} 

"This prophecy is not addressed to Jerusalem or its people. They had been left, as we have seen in the preceding chapter, to reap the consequences of their rejection of their King; and this, their season of tribulation is only referred to here because it is a sign to the church: otherwise it would have been passed in silence by.."      

..Jerusalem and the Jews are not the theme of this prophecy. They have been left in the preceding chapter, and they are only referred to here for the sake of others, that is, ourselves-Christians, to whom their history is a sign. Their history is only given in this chapter so far as it is a sign to the church.. 

..They (Israel) are spoken OF, but they are not spoken TO. The body thus addressed in the twenty-third chapter is as diverse from that addressed in the twenty-fourth, as blessing is different from woe. The first were rejectors of Jesus - refusing to call Him blessed. They were the representatives of hardened, blinded, unbelieving Israel. But the others, that is to say, those addressed in the twenty-fourth chapter, were the disciples of Jesus. They had already called Him blessed. They were going without the gate bearing His reproach. Whilst blindness was resting upon Israel, they were to be His ministers, and His witnesses. They were to walk in light whilst the others were groping in darkness. They were addressed, therefore, not as the representatives of hardened, unbelieving Israel, or of Israel partially enlightened. They were addressed as the representatives of the Church of the living God. To them it had been said, 'Blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear.' Having Christ they had all things. How important, therefore, to distinguish between the 'ye' of the twenty-third chapter, and the 'ye' of the twenty-fourth. In each case it is a corporate 'ye', and has already extended over nearly two thousand years..

If 'you' in this passage does not refer to persons belonging to the church of the living God (this some have said)  then Stephen, Peter and Paul and John could not have been members of that church."  (Matthew 24: 15, 33).

H A Ironside: “That the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke are Christian Scripture, in the same sense in which the Gospel of John is Christian Scripture. {p. 33} “III. That the Pentecostal church was not in a semi-Jewish or semi-Christian condition, or in any sense ‘earthly,’ or ‘formed for citizenship in the earth;’ but in a true church position, as ‘partakers of the heavenly calling.." {6}

I have colour coded the relevant verses from 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24 in order to demonstrate that that Paul mirrors the Olivet Discourse. Both passages concern the rapture and are relevant to the church. These verses also confirm that rapture is not a "secret" event as many pre-trib teachers claim.

 
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:30-31).

Matthew 24:30 "..all the tribes of the earth will mourn" also ties in with Revelation 6:

Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?” Revelation 6:15-17).

Something To Consider

The pre-trib rapture doctrine dominates the teaching of Andy Woods and others, such as Jan Markell, Amir Tsafarti, JD Farag etc. They consistently produce videos defending the subject in spite of the fact that when tested, both the evidence for pre-trib and its history is questionable. (1 John 4:1). If the pre-trib camp are wrong, and they are, then there is real potential for terrible damage to believers. In particular there is a credible link to the apostasy in Matthew 24:10 cf. Matthew 13:21. We will all have to give an account of ourselves to God (Romans 14:12, Hebrews 13:17, 1 Peter 4:5 ), teachers more so than the rest of us. (James 3:1). Pre-trib teachers should be mindful that the doctrines they so confidently assert are not a stumbling block to the body of Christ. (Psalm 40:4).

In another way, post-trib rapture teachers also have a responsibility to study the scriptures and to respond to questions about the weaknesses in their particular view. As far as I am aware, apart from one conversation I had with someone from Good Fight Ministries, the post-trib camp tend to ignore questions about these weaknesses. {7} Joe Schimmel's recent example of the early Church Father Victorinus, whom he cited in an attempt to prove a post-trib concurrent interpretation of the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl, was unreliable. {8} This kind of speculation causes confusion, not clarity. Many arguments used by pre-trib teachers are taken directly from weaknesses in the post-trib view and vice versa. Although I believe that they are sincere, the post trib camp, albeit inadvertently, are remiss in bringing clarity to this debate. In contrast, I believe that the prewrath position consistently solves the inherent weaknesses within both the pre-trib and post trib views. 

1. Even Pseudo-Ephraem Was Perhaps Not Pre-Trib (brotherpete.com)
2. Revelation 6 Greek Testament Critical Exegetical Commentary - Alford (biblehub.com)
3. Charles H. Spurgeon and Eschatology (romans45.org)
4. http://bible.christiansunite.com/darby.cgi?b=Mt&c=24
5. The Prophecy of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 24 & 25 | Plymouth Brethren Archive
6. Chapter Three Gathering Clouds | Plymouth Brethren Writings
7. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: GOOD FIGHT MINISTRIES SKEWED POST-TRIB RAPTURE VIEW (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)
8. WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: JOE SCHIMMEL BLESSED HOPE CHAPEL: VICTORINUS IS UNRELIABLE (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)

Further Links:

* What did the early church fathers say about a pre-trib rapture? (Gospel, churches) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum (city-data.com)
* 7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture
* Articles for Posttribulationism to Consider | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES (alankurschner.com)* (25) Chuck Missler & Friends, Council for National Policy Exposed Part 1 - Dr Scott Johnson - YouTube
* WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: SAM ADAMS INDEPENDENCE BAPTIST CHURCH: MISREPRESENTATION OF THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE (bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com)

JOE SCHIMMEL BLESSED HOPE CHAPEL: VICTORINUS IS UNRELIABLE

Joe Schimmel takes his post-tribulation rapture view from the unreliable and utterly confused third century Church Father, Victorinus of Pettau. Victorinus' commentary on the book of Revelation is the source mentioned by Joe Schimmel Blessed Hope Chapel in a weak attempt to justify his post-tribulation rapture view. {1}

According to Joe Schimmel, the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl correspond to one another i.e. they are the same events. Joe Schimmel "..he (Victorinus) talks about a recapitulation, and how the bowls overlap.. they are not written consecutively.." {2} 

Apparently Victorinus was the first of the Church Fathers to invent the basic notion of repetition. He asserted that the apocalypse is not one uninterrupted and developing line of prophecy, but rather that various subdivisions run parallel with each other. Victorinus speculated that the theme of the soon coming second advent was a continuous thread of thought throughout the Apocalypse. {3} Victorinus' muddled ramblings run counter to the scriptures which demonstrate a consecutive-progressive framework for the seals, trumpets and bowls.

Alan Kurschner: "The prewrath position interprets a sequential chronological framework for the seals, trumpets, and bowls. That is, the seal-trumpet-bowl septets (sets of seven) will happen in a consecutive-progressive fashion with each septet consecutively following each other. For example, the trumpet septet cannot begin until the seventh seal is opened; and the bowl septet cannot begin before the seventh trumpet is blown. The last judgment element of the day of the Lord’s wrath will be the seventh bowl. Accordingly, the seventh seal and the seventh trumpet serve as transitions to the next set of God’s climaxing judgments, culminating with the seventh bowl." {4}

A cursory examination of Victorinus' commentary on the Apocalypse exposes some concerning departures from the scriptures.

From the Sixth Chapter    

Victorinus: 1,2. And when the Lamb had opened one of the seven seals, I saw, and heard one of the four living creatures saying, Come and see. And, lo, a white horse, and He who sat upon him had a bow.. The first seal being opened, he says that he saw a white horse, and a crowned horseman having a bow. For this was at first done by Himself. For after the Lord ascended into heaven and opened all things, He sent the  Holy Spirit, whose words the preachers sent forth as arrows reaching to the human heart, that they might overcome unbelief. And the crown on the head is promised to the preachers by the Holy Spirit. The other three horses very plainly signify the wars, famines, and pestilences announced by our Lord in the Gospel. And thus he says that one of the four living creatures said (because all four are one), Come and see. Come is said to him that is invited to faith; see is said to him who saw not. Therefore the white horse is the word of preaching with the Holy Spirit sent into the world. For the Lord says, This Gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world for a testimony to all nations, and then shall come the end.

Victorinus incorrectly identifies the white horse of Revelation 6:1-2 as the Holy Spirit. 
The consensus amongst reliable commentators is that the rider on the white horse is the Antichrist.

Victorinus: The black horse signifies famine, for the Lord says, There shall be famines in various places; but the word is specially extended to the times of Antichrist, when there shall be a great famine, and when all shall be injured. Moreover, the balance in the hand is the examining scales, wherein He might show forth the merits of every individual. He then says:—
6. Hurt not the wine and the oil. That is, strike not the spiritual man with your inflictions. This is the black horse.

The third seal/black horse relates to the beginning of birth pains i.e. famines in various places. (Revelation 6:5-6; Matthew 24:7-8). The Antichrist makes his appearance in the third temple at the mid point of the 70th week of Daniel after the first four seals are opened. (Daniel 9:27).  

Benson: "And he that sat on him had a pair of balances, or scales, in his hand — Implying that men should eat their bread by weight, and drink their water by measure, or that there should be a great scarcity." {5} 

Hurt not the wine and the oil - Revelation 6:6b does not refer to the exemption of "the spiritual man". The catastrophic events inflicted by the seals are indiscriminate natural occurrences. 

Victorinus: 9. And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain. He relates that he saw under the altar of God, that is, under the earth, the souls of them that were slain.  Victorinus identifies this alter as the brazen altar ..the brazen altar is understood the earth, under which is the Hades, — a region withdrawn from punishments and fires, and a place of repose for the saints. 

Various commentaries confirm that the fifth seal martyrs are in the Lord's presence in heaven. {6} Therefore this alter is not under the earth. The scriptures indicate that Paradise (Abraham's bosom) was moved from Hades to Heaven at some point after the resurrection. (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:2-4). 

Victorinus And for a solace to their body, there were given unto each of them white robes. They received, says he, white robes, that is, the gift of the Holy Spirit.  

The white robes of the martyrs signify purity.

12. And I saw, when he had opened the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake. In the sixth seal, then, was a great earthquake: this is that very last persecution.  

And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair. The sun becomes as sackcloth; that is, the brightness of doctrine will be obscured by unbelievers.

And the entire moon became as blood. By the moon of blood is set forth the Church of the saints as pouring out her blood for Christ. 

13. And the stars fell to the earth. The falling of the stars are the faithful who are troubled for Christ's sake.
Even as a fig-tree casts her untimely figs. The fig-tree, when shaken, loses its untimely figs — when men are separated from the Church by persecution. 

14. And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up. For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away.

From the Seventh Chapter

2. And the trumpet is the word of power. And although the same thing recurs in the phials, still it is not said as if it occurred twice, but because what is decreed by the Lord to happen shall be once for all; for this cause it is said twice. What, therefore, He said too little in the trumpets, is here found in the phials. We must not regard the order of what is said, because frequently the Holy Spirit, when He has traversed even to the end of the last times, returns again to the same times, and fills up what He had before failed to say. Nor must we look for order in the Apocalypse; but we must follow the meaning of those things which are prophesied. Therefore in the trumpets and phials is signified either the desolation of the plagues that are sent upon the earth, or the madness of Antichrist himself, or the cutting off of the peoples, or the diversity of the plagues, or the hope in the kingdom of the saints, or the ruin of states, or the great overthrow of Babylon, that is, the Roman state.

I could continue, but hopefully I have done enough to make the point that Victorinus' commentary on the Apocalypse is deeply flawed. Although he was premillennial, Victorinus wrote in an allegorical style unacceptable to literal futurist premillennialists. Premillennialism depends upon a literal interpretation of prophecy, taking the words in their ordinary sense, and this is obviously not the case with Victorinus' exposition.

 

It is irresponsible for any bible believing Christian to base their eschatology on Victorinus, or any other Church Father, without testing their writings against the scriptures. (1 John 4:1; Acts 17:11). Victorinus' unscriptural interpretation muddies the waters, and his exegesis is, for the most part, defective. (Ezekiel 32:13-14). 

One has to engage is eisegesis and read ones own interpretation into the text to come up with a concurrent interpretation. This is a weighty matter because any departure from the scriptures has unhelpful implications for those Christians who are already confused about the timing of the rapture. (Revelation 22:18-19). Joe Schimmel's valid critique of the pre-trib view is blighted by the fact that he is unable to demonstrate his concurrent view from the scriptures. To have resorted to the fallacious teachings of Victorinus is a desperate measure that I might have expected from a false teacher, not from Joe Schimmel. 

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).

My question: Why does Joe Schimmel take his interpretation of the book of Revelation from this confused third century Church Father?

1. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0712.htm
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0Y5PrIC-ME
3. https://peoplepill.com/people/victorinus-of-pettau/
4. https://www.alankurschner.com/2015/05/28/seals-trumpets-bowls-in-the-book-of-revelation-concurrent-recapitulation-or-consecutive-progressive-part-1-of-2-ep-36/
5. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/6-5.htm
6. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/6-9.htm

Further Posts: 

https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/search/label/Joe%20Schimmel%20Blessed%20Hope%20Chapel

JOE SCHIMMEL BLESSED HOPE CHAPEL: THE SIXTH SEAL, THE SEVENTH TRUMPET AND THE SEVENTH BOWL

Sunday Morning Service 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0Y5PrIC-ME

I have attempted to broach the question of the post-tribulation rapture view with Good Fight Ministries previously, in particular their view of the seals, trumpets and bowls. My discussion with GFM on the below link exposed a blind spot in their understanding of the timing of the rapture as it relates to the cosmic disturbances in Matthew 24:29-31. In fact all three synoptic gospels confirm the proximity of the rapture to the cosmic disturbances in Revelation 6:12-14. Although I am on board with Joe Schimmel (Blessed Hope Chapel/GFM) in many respects, their post-trib rapture view does not stand up to close scrutiny. (Acts 17:11).

Good Fight Ministries Scewed Post-trib Rapture View

https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/2020/04/good-fight-ministries-skewed-post-trib.html

Why is this question important?

How can post-trib proponents successfully oppose the pre-tribulation rapture when their own position has obvious flaws?  

Sadly the post-trib position does nothing to dispel the confusion surrounding the controversial subject of the timing of the rapture. To their discredit, the post-trib camp cannot defend their position biblically. This post is more detailed than my previous efforts, in the hope that Joe Schimmel and his team will study the scriptures rather than argue their position from preconceived ideas and eisegesis. (2 Timothy 2:15). 

According to Joe Schimmel, the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl correspond to one another i.e. they are the same events. Joe mentions an unreliable third century church father by the name of Victorinus. Apparently Victorinus was the first of the Church Fathers to ascertain the basic notion of repetition – that the Apocalypse is not one uninterrupted and developing line of prophecy, but rather that various subdivisions run parallel with each other. And he saw that the theme of the soon coming Second Advent was a continuous thread of thought throughout the Apocalypse.{1} Joe Schimmel "..he (Victorinus) talks about a recapitulation, and how the bowls overlap.. they are not written consecutively.. but whatever you believe about that, ultimately you need to understand this.. that prior to Christs coming in Revelation chapter 19, the Bride has been made ready.."  

Joe Schimmel's phrase "whatever you believe about that" assigns the subject to a non-essential category, i.e. whatever we happen believe about the timing of the rapture will not ultimately affect our salvation. In the case of pre-trib view I do not agree. There is a distinct possibility that pre-trib believers will "fall away" during the great tribulation. As such there is an inescapable correlation between the pre-trib rapture view and salvation. (Matthew 24:10; 1 Timothy 4:1). Moreover, there are significant reasons why the post-trib/prewrath debate should not be trivialized. If we fall short in this respect, we may unintentionally put a stumbling block in the way of our pre-trib friends, and also those who throw their hands in the air and say that they are "pan-trib" (it will all pan out i.e. those who underrate the significance of the rapture question). (Leviticus 19:14; 2 Corinthians 6:3). A growing number of Christians now adhere to the prewrath rapture position, having studied the scriptures and rightly divided the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15). 

Joe Schimmel rightly says that it is imperative that we have a right understanding of the timing of events in the book of Revelation. He says: "We are warned not to add or take away from this book, we dare not trifle with the outline that Jesus gave us.. God does not want us to add or take away from just one verse of the book of Revelation.. When you come up with a theology, or an eschatology ~ an eschatological construct that destroys the entire book... think what that does to God's heart.."  

I do not claim that the post-trib rapture view destroys the whole book of Revelation. However, this view is problematic and potentially damaging for the reasons outlined above. When scripture is misinterpreted it is often the thin end of the wedge. (1 Corinthians 4:6). CH Spurgeon: "It is knowing the difference between right and almost right. ... The devil likes to mix his lies with just enough of the truth to make it look plausible." 

Victorinus: "The Apocalypse here shows, therefore, that these reapers, and shepherds, and labourers, are the angels. And the trumpet is the word of power. And although the same thing recurs in the phials, still it is not said as if it occurred twice, but because what is decreed by the Lord to happen shall be once for all; for this cause it is said twice. What, therefore, He said too little in the trumpets, is here found in the phials. We must not regard the order of what is said, because frequently the Holy Spirit, when He has traversed even to the end of the last times, returns again to the same times, and fills up what He had before failed to say. Nor must we look for order in the Apocalypse; but we must follow the meaning of those things which are prophesied. Therefore in the trumpets and phials is signified either the desolation of the plagues that are sent upon the earth, or the madness of Antichrist himself, or the cutting off of the peoples, or the diversity of the plagues, or the hope in the kingdom of the saints, or the ruin of states, or the great overthrow of Babylon, that is, the Roman state." {2}

The sixth seal:

When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, (Revelation 6:12).
Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31).

Matthew 24 specifically locates the cosmic disturbances of Revelation 6 immediately after the great tribulation. The rapture becomes imminent after the cosmic disturbances of the sixth seal i.e. it occurs between and the sixth seventh seal. The sixth seal indicates the impending wrath of God, specifically, the chronological sets of seven trumpet and and seven bowl judgements following the seventh seal.

The seventh seal:

Revelation 8 follows an explicit sequence of events:

~ The Lamb opens the seventh seal and there is silence in heaven for about half an hour. (v1)

~ Seven trumpets are given to the angels. (v2)

~ The seven angels prepare to blow the trumpets. (v6)

~ The first angel blows his trumpet. (v7).

~ The second to the fourth trumpets are sounded. (v8-12)

~ The remaining three trumpets are about to be sounded. (v13)

This passage is unequivocal. Common sense tells us that the sixth seal precedes the seventh seal and that the trumpets follow the opening of the seventh seal in chronological order. How does Joe Schimmel come up with the conclusion that the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet are the same event?

When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them. The first angel blew his trumpet, and there followed hail and fire, mixed with blood, and these were thrown upon the earth. And a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up. (Revelation 8-1-7). 

There is an increasing intensity in the judgements as the seals, trumpets and bowls are discharged. The seals release natural events: sword, famine and pestilence, culminating in the sixth seal "great earthquake" and the cosmic disturbances, indicating that "the great day of their wrath" is at hand. (Revelation 6:12,17). The seven trumpets differ from the seals in that they are supernatural events dispensed by angels. Note the phrases in Revelation 8: thrown upon the earth, thrown into the sea, a great star fell from heaven, a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars. The three woes indicate even greater intensity. When the fifth angel sounds his trumpet a star falls from heaven to earth. The fifth angel opens the shaft of the bottomless pit releasing demonic "locusts" that torture humans for five months. (Revelation 9:1-7). The sixth trumpet releases four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind. (Revelation 9:15). The seventh trumpet: ..but that in the days of the trumpet call to be (μέλλῃ) sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. (Revelation  10:7).  μέλλω = 3195 méllō – properly, at the very point of acting; ready, 'about to happen.' {3} The intensity of God's wrath upon the godless increases when the bowls are poured out on the earth. (Revelation 16:1-20). A plain reading of the text suggests a quick chronological succession of events. 

The Fifth Seal Martyrs

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Revelation 6:9-11).

This passage indicates that the wrath of God is yet to be discharged. As such, the trumpet and bowl judgments cannot occur before the fifth seal is opened.

There are various additional problems associated with the post-trib view that I have not mentioned in this post. I recommend Alan Kurschner's website for a full assessment of the difficulties associated with this view. 

(See Further Links). 

I would like to see Joe Schimmel and his team specifically address the problems associated with their view. It seems odd that Joe has not applied his usual expertise/exegesis in this area. Inexplicably he offers nothing concrete to substantiate his claims for a post-trib rapture.  

1. https://peoplepill.com/people/victorinus-of-pettau/
2. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0712.htm
3. https://biblehub.com/greek/3195.htm

Further Links

https://www.alankurschner.com/2014/02/22/seals-trumpets-bowls-at-the-same-time-or-one-after-the-other-i-e-concurrent-recapitulation-or-consecutive-https://www.alankurschner.com/2015/06/04/seals-trumpets-bowls-concurrent-recapitulation-or-consecutive-progressive-part-2-of-2-ep-37/
progressive/https://www.alankurschner.com/2017/08/10/articles-for-posttribulationism-to-consider/

https://www.alankurschner.com/2020/09/05/3-key-reasons-why-posttribbers-are-becoming-prewrath/?fbclid=IwAR0DBb_Mzw0_SRN9uxi5GI69rtNhaRBt3VcfICoTAOCFnYd6CBhypNH9gRs
https://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/emails/prewrathposttrib.html

https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/2020/09/joe-schimmel-blessed-hope-chapel.html

GOOD FIGHT MINISTRIES SKEWED POST-TRIB RAPTURE VIEW

Below: A challenging conversation I had recently with Good Fight Ministries regarding the post-tribulation rapture position following their video:
Not Appointed to Wrath 19th March 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki9EMQtEcPg&t=142s

The Rapture at the End of the Age 5th March 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaSdF91Rdu8&t=1s

The exchange continued in the comments of GFM's later video:
Take the Mark of the Beast by Accident 3rd April 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EylrX7Px3Hs

 

It is concerning that whoever it was that engaged with me from GFM did not recognize the specific timing of the rapture as detailed in Matthew 24:29-31. This is to ignore the principles of sound exegesis! (Proverbs 30:5; Psalm 119:160). In fact all three synoptic gospels confirm the rapture and its imminency in relation to the cosmic disturbances in Revelation 6:12-14:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’  (Isaiah 13:10, Isaiah 34:4, and Joel 2:10)
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:20-31).

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. (Mark 13:24-27).

“And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” (Luke 21:25-28).

Revelation chapters 14-16 CONFIRM this sequence of events: 

• The rapture. (Revelation 14:14-16).
• Preparation for God's wrath. (Revelation 15:5-7).
• The execution of God's wrath. (Revelation 16:1-20. 

I have nothing more to add to this conversation. Clearly GFM need to do some further study into this subject.

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).