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Friday, 8 May 2015

alleged dishonesty and deception: are revelation tv conning their supporters about finances?

Sarah Acott was involved in running the channels on Revelation TV during their first year of broadcasting. She became suspicious and wrote to Peter Darg and the Trustees in 2012 outlining some very serious concerns about the money that goes to 21st Century Television Ltd, the holding company for Revelation TV. Sarah has been "sitting" on this information for a number of years, but now has decided to go public with it. I totally support Sarah's decision because I believe that it is better for RTV to be exposed by genuine believers rather than by the secular media for the sake of the Christian witness (2 Peter 2:2). Below is a transcript of Sarah's concerns which I have not altered, apart from highlighting certain critical points and deleting Sarah's contact details: 

"Dear Peter and Trustees 

I originally wrote this report to you in February, but was asked not to send it at the time due to the then climate that existed at Revelation. There are a few things I do not agree with regarding the way that the channel operates, however today I just want to focus on finances. 

Peter, I don’t know if you would remember me. I was the then 17 year old girl who used to run the live shows during the first year of the channel? 

I have knowledge of the inner workings of the channel as I didn’t just do the live shows, but also training others, scheduling and working in the office before it was moved to Surbiton. During this time I learnt about the finances, airtime sales etc so have put my own knowledge together with that available on the internet and come to the following conclusions. The conclusions below were written back in February before Howard’s email to everyone@revelationtv.com and now look as being correct. I have not edited this much further so a lot of this is now possibly old news, so please bear with it. 

The issue I wish to raise is that donors to the channel are being mislead in the way that funds are raised and presented on the Building the Foundation programme. The programme leads the viewer to believe that the finances reported on the pie charts are a representation of the entire channels financial operation. This is not true and could be accused of being fraudulent. I am only bringing this to you because I believe that this is something that you as the legal overseers should be aware of. 

It became obvious to me when I watched one of the first Building the Foundation programmes years ago. The income stated leaves out one of the largest income streams into the channel – airtime and advertising sales. Having worked in the office during the set up of the channel I know about the 21st Century television account and believe that the money from this huge source of income is going straight into this account. From what I can gather from the charities commission website 21st Century Television makes donations to the Revelation Foundation. The donation total for 2009 was £350,000 I believe. I have a problem with this as by my maths this is no where near the total that is received in airtime and advertising. Using very conservative figures I come to the below sums. 

Airtime at £350 per 30 min slot x 4 paying ministries = £1400 per day x 365 = £511,000 per year
Advertising at £15 per spot x 12 = £180 per day x 365 = £65,700 


As you can see from this very conservative estimate there is around £200,000 which is going into this account. Howard and Gordon have always said 'come and look at our books'. I’m sure they would be happy for someone who hasn’t a clue how a station is run to come and look, but I believe this over confidence is a bluff. 

I do not know what is happening to the money that goes into 21st Century, but as Trustees I hope you do. The reason I am bringing this up is the dishonesty and deception. When I tell people I used to work for the station they often comment about the transparency of the finances and how wonderful it is to see exactly where the money goes. The problem is they are not seeing where all the money goes and if people found out what sort of a response should we expect from the poor old ladies at home who give 'the widow’s mite' in good faith that the money is needed and that there is transparency. How would Jesus respond? 

My own suspicion is that 21st Century tops up the Revelation Foundation at the amount it needs. If I am correct then how wrong is it to convince people of a need which isn’t real? This is fraud and those who are aware of this deception need to repent. I am aware that for some of you however, that this would be unknown. 

There needs to be either a clear distinction for viewers between 21st Century Television and the Revelation Foundation or preferably all money to flow through the Revelation Foundation as this would give the clarity and transparency that the viewers expect. Also I cannot see the charities commission looking favourably on the current reporting of finances. 

Considering that in the initial mission statement of the channel was a very clear statement of not asking for funds on air – things have not only gone very far from the vision, but also veered into an area of possible criminality. 

Please see my other document BTF Report, which is a transcript of the last Building the Foundation programme (February 2012). 

I would like to make it clear that the last thing I want is for this information to go into the public domain. I have sat on this for years and feel I should have confronted earlier, but feel that with the current Trustees there is an opportunity for things to be put right. 

I pray you will have the strength and courage to do what is needed. 

You are welcome to contact me with any questions or queries at xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 

In light of Howard’s email to everyone@revelationtv.com, it is now confirmed that all money from airtime sales etc goes to 21st Century TV and that this money goes to Howard and Lesley. There have been many programmes which suggest that Howard and Lesley do not take a wage from the station and I guess to some extent that could be true as they might take it as a dividend, but this is deceptive. 

Howard’s email said that he didn’t feel comfortable taking from 'the widows mite', which sounds very sacrificial when said in that way, however by taking the entirety of the stations earned (as opposed to donated) money they have created a deficit which the 'widows mite' then has to fill. Personally I cannot see this as a good argument and whilst I don’t wish to be cynical, I believe this is done in this way so that the viewers cannot see how much money is being taken by Howard and Lesley. 

I realise that is a heavy accusation, however I do accounts for a charity myself and can’t see this any other way. I have no problem with Howard and Lesley taking even millions every year as that is their choice. However it is not being fair or honest with the viewers and those who do give the 'widows mite'. 

I would never go public with this information, as I spent 6 months as a volunteer and a further 6 months on a wage that covered my train fare and not much more. So for me to see something that I invested so much of myself into be brought down by either the charity commission or a police investigation would be a personal loss. However after Howard’s email I’d be very surprised if no one else did as it’s not difficult to connect the dots.

You are welcome to contact me with any questions or queries at xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"


BUILDING THE FOUNDATION REPORT

Transcript from Building the Foundation 14th February 2012 with Gordon Pettie and Doug Harris.

Doug – "Gordon, let me just ask you a question, because we say each month and we are very open. We are I think one of only a few channels who are, but tell me Gordon – be honest. Do you manipulate the figures in any way?" [1]

Gordon "Doug! What a question to ask me!"

Doug "Well, I do sit next you in the office." 

Both – Laugh

Gordon "What does that mean?!

I suppose the answer would be yes and no… no…"
 

Doug "Before the phones start ringing even more you had better explain that! "

Gordon "Well, no in the sense that the figures are done every month. We have Elaine who works in the accounts department and she collates all the figures for us. When she’s done them, she sends them to our accountant. The accountant then looks at them and the figures that I use are the figures the accountants use. [2]

But, yes, in the sense that when we show the figures for January, we actually should have a payment going out for the rent £15,000. We didn’t get enough money coming in in January to pay the rent. So the figure you are going to see is an incorrect figure, because we really should say there is another £15,000 of expenditure in January, which we didn’t do.

When I show the figures in a moment, you’ll see we had a surplus in January of £2,000+ and that’s why our target is £12,300, because that means we will have the rent money. Of course in February we then have to raise that again all the money that we need." 


Doug – And that’s the point, because we take it to the end of the month, but Building the Foundation is already using a couple of weeks in, so already got another target to reach.

But it is amazing and even with the slight differences it’s amazing how often the two figures – the income and expenditure, balance. And whatever the expenditure the income is there. I’m always amazed at that – month by month. [3]

Gordon "I am too and we don’t manipulate that. [4] John O’Dell one of our trustees and accountant, he tells me off. He says “well the figures are bound to vary every month, because it just depends on when the income comes in and when the expenditure goes out”. [5]

And that’s why some months like this month we have a slight surplus and maybe next month a slight deficit, but you average out and you come to the end of the financial year and you’re very close. It’s the Lord, it’s the Lord!"
[6]

Doug "Well, we need to move on with the figures."

Gordon "So January time. Let me show you the income that came in and the way that we spent it. Here’s a chart, which just illustrates the income. One-off gifts – those of you who sent cheques in those of you who made donations £20,969. And so many of you now pay monthly by standing order and direct debit a tremendous £53,946.

Those of you who told us that you are taxpayers we were able to ask the government for money back and that came in during January to £8,754. Those of you who go to World pay and paypal and make donations by credit card £48,633 and many of you tonight have been going to the website and paying that way. So that means a total income for this month of £132,302.

So what did we do with the money? How did we spend it? That’s the income figure there - £132,000.
[7] How did we spend the money during the month of January?

Well, our broadcast costs – it costs us a lot of money each month to send it down to a firm called Globecast, who send it up in the sky to a satellite, beam it down into your homes and Sky and Freesat £47,753.
[8]Our personnel costs, our staffing costs, consultant costs and other ancillary costs towards that £41,243. [9] We spent some money on equipment during the month - £10,013.

We spent some money on our property, just continual maintenance and work that needs doing - £8,645. Our administration costs were low this month £7,168 and other expenditure of £14,692, which means that the total you can see there on the screen coming up at £129,514.

For those of you who have already done your sums, you will know what that means for the month – it means that if you just look at this simple chart, which shows two poles coming up. It means our income figure was £132,302, our expenditure was £129,514.
[10] So at the end of January we had a surplus we thank the Lord for of £2,788, but as I’ve already said we didn’t actually pay the rent on this building in January and it would have put us quite close to where we would have had no money in our account and as a charity, we are not allowed to go in the red or have an overdraft. And so our target tonight is that and any surplus that comes in once that rent money has been brought in will go towards the expenditure for February. So Doug, it’s amazing isn’t it, the figures and the people who are giving tonight."








[1] This is a direct and likely scripted question, which misleads viewers into believing they are seeing the full picture.

[2] The figures the account uses are the figures of the Revelation Foundation – not the figures of the channel as these figure do not included income from airtime and advertising sales or the sales of merchandise. This figure I conservatively estimate to be over half a million per year (see my calculations for more details) and goes instead to 21st Century TV Ltd.

[3] The reason for this I suspect is the donations from 21st Century TV are just enough to top up the funds to ensure the foundation can continue to meet it’s expenditure.

[4] If point 3 is true this is blatant deception.

[5] Even the accountant has noted a pattern.

[6] Is it the Lord or manipulation?

[7] Absolutely no reference is made to any income other than viewer donations – this is leaving the viewer with no option than to believe that this is the only income to the station, which is not true.

[8] Revelation Foundation pays for the airtime, but 21st Century TV takes the profit from selling the airtime, but with no liability for the actual real cost of running a 24 hr station. I suspect they pay a wholesale price for each slot they sell, but this is income that should be for the Foundation as charities are allowed to have income other than donations.

[9] 21st Century TV did make a contribution towards the staffing costs for the year of £45,000 for using the channels staff – This would only pay for 1-2 peoples wages and bearing in mind the profits involved 21st Century TV are getting an extremely good deal.

[10] No mention of any other income to the channel via 21st Century TV or any other companies.

FOLLOW UP POSTS:

Howard Conder's deceptive Facebook post which omits the transcript from Building the Foundation above. Emails sent by Sarah Acott and the responses she received from Peter Darg, Gordon Pettie and Alan Tun. Howard Conder has never responded directly to Sarah about her concerns.
http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/alleged-dishonesty-and-deception-at.html 

Gordon Pettie And The Barlow Clowes Fraud:  http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/more-revelations-about-revelation-tv.html 

23 comments:

Anonymous said...

Forgive me for being dim, but I'm not sure I understand..are we saying that The Conders make a living by selling the airtime on RTV to other ministries, which comes under 21st century tv.. this money they keep to live on, whilst the RTV foundation programmes are founded by the public donations..but it's thought to be wrong that they say there is a shortfall in money for the RTV foundation when they could take some of the money they earn and donate that without asking the public for the shortfall? I'm not sure I understand why that is wrong? sorry - and that is not an attack against you Treena...but are they not entitled to do what they wish with the income they earn? Genuinely confused.

Treena Gisborn said...

Hi Anonymous I suggest that you read the follow up article. All the money from airtime sales for Revelation TV goes to 21st Century TV. However Howard and Leslie have said on numerous occasions that they do not take a wage from the station, which is very misleading. The Conder's do in fact receive money from programmes aired on RTV, not directly, but via 21st Century TV. I hope this clarifies things. God bless t

Anonymous said...

Thanks Treena, yes, I do understand that, perhaps I did not make that clear from my post, and I have read the follow up article. I'm just not sure why it is wrong for them to make money from other ministries airing on RTV, though yes, they should be clear about that..but if they were clear about that the only conflict I can see is if they are using equipment purchased by the public for the station to make private money with, but then they do need to make a living, so either they do that or the public fund their rent, food etc. As I said, perhaps I am dim, and no offence meant towards you or the girl who gave you this information.I have my own thoughts about RTV, but for different reasons.

Treena Gisborn said...

Hi Absolutely no reference is made to any income in these pie charts presented on RTV other than viewer donations. Points 1-10 explain the problem very clearly I think.

[1] This is a direct and likely scripted question, which misleads viewers into believing they are seeing the full picture.

[2] The figures the account uses are the figures of the Revelation Foundation – not the figures of the channel as these figure do not included income from airtime and advertising sales or the sales of merchandise. This figure I conservatively estimate to be over half a million per year (see my calculations for more details) and goes instead to 21st Century TV Ltd.

[3] The reason for this I suspect is the donations from 21st Century TV are just enough to top up the funds to ensure the foundation can continue to meet it’s expenditure.

[4] If point 3 is true this is blatant deception.

[5] Even the accountant has noted a pattern.

[6] Is it the Lord or manipulation?

[7] Absolutely no reference is made to any income other than viewer donations – this is leaving the viewer with no option than to believe that this is the only income to the station, which is not true.

[8] Revelation Foundation pays for the airtime, but 21st Century TV takes the profit from selling the airtime, but with no liability for the actual real cost of running a 24 hr station. I suspect they pay a wholesale price for each slot they sell, but this is income that should be for the Foundation as charities are allowed to have income other than donations.

[9] 21st Century TV did make a contribution towards the staffing costs for the year of £45,000 for using the channels staff – This would only pay for 1-2 peoples wages and bearing in mind the profits involved 21st Century TV are getting an extremely good deal.

[10] No mention of any other income to the channel via 21st Century TV or any other companies.

Treena Gisborn said...

Gordon Pettie: "So, what we say on a night like Building The Foundation night is “These are the facts.” And at the end of the day, we are a Faith-Ministry. We don’t have any reserves of any kind and every month we have to say “Lord, if this work is to continue then we need your people, faithfully, to give.”

This is not honest is it anon since they have plenty of money from 21st Century TV!!!!!

I do intend writing another post in the near future. God bless t

Sarah Acott said...

Hi Anonymous.
This is Sarah. As I made clear in my original correspondence in 2012, I have no problem with the Condors making millions out of the channel. It's not about that at all.
The problem is that people donate often because of the image that is portrayed.
There is one person I know who had donated in excess of £100,000 (yes, one hundred thousand GBP) due to being mislead to believe that the Condors do not take a penny from Revelation. This person is now trying to get their donations back as he gave exclusively because he thought the Condors were doing it for no financial gain at all.
If people like the person above donate thinking that the station absolutely needs their donation and the charts show ALL their income (which they do say they are), they are doing so because they have been deceived.
The other point that really is crucial here is that Howard lied about me personally(and many others too)and edited my original correspondence. If he really believed that he was in the right, he would have put my full report on his Facebook post together with the graphs and transcripts.
Instead, he lied about me personally and took out my actual point for propaganda.
I hope this makes things clearer.

Anonymous said...

Thank you, yes it does. I didn't know that about the large donor, and I am genuinely sorry to hear it. I too have donated in the past. As I said my post was NOT against you or Treena, I am just trying to understand. I have had my own issues with Rtv, which I watched from the very beginning, and loved, which came to a head with the departure of Jacob Prasch and the subsequent scorn displayed on air against those loyal viewers who disagreed and asked them to reconsider.

Treena Gisborn said...

The propaganda produced by Conder's Facebook deception was successful! I have all the comments related to it which I intend publishing. For instance:

"Just read your post Howard and I am in shock that anyone could say such things about you and Rev.tv. Remember God chose you and put in on your heart to start the channel. All I can say is have faith Howard and remember that He will see you through. I know it is hard with so much negativity coming at you from different directions, but you are in the palm of His hand, the hand he laid on your heart. God Bless you and yours and I will keep you all in my prayer."

Conder has fooled just about everyone!!! I myself pray that Conder and his associates will stop this ridiculous charade and repent before it goes any further. God is not mocked!

Anonymous said...

Hi Treena,

I wonder what is going to happen to the £1000.0000 donation for the recent building fund, that has all gone quiet, and no mention of the building fund any more, we must keep our eyes on this. If they have a million sitting in the bank how can they say they are needing more money and operating on a deficit IT WOULD ALSO APPEAR THAT THEIR PRODUCTION LIMITED COMPANY ARE ALSO USING THE STUDIOS WHICH ARE BEING FUNDED BY THE PUBLIC.

God Bless you Treena doing a stirling job for he Lord

Treena Gisborn said...

hmmmm interesting Anonymous!! Thank you for posting this. God bless you.

Anonymous said...

What this means is that if all the money from airtime sales is going to 21st Century TV and the Revelation Foundation are funding all of the broadcast costs, then the foundation is paying for the broadcasting costs of the company and it is making 100% profit.

Treena Gisborn said...

They claimed they were stuggling for finances every time on Building The Foundation!!! Conder has blackened Sarah Acott's name in the process of this deception. It is totally disgusting. Thank you anon.

Sarah Acott said...

Hi Anonymous

To be clear I'm not saying that 21st Century don't contribute to the running costs relating to airtime sales, as they do pay for some things.

But the point still stands that they are creating an artificial deficit by taking all earnt income away from the charity and into a private limited company, which does have very healthy profits and reportedly, at present around £400,000 bank balance.

Even this in itself is legal, as many organisations work in this way. However, when they explicitly tell people they don't take a penny, things become somewhat fraudulent.

My own suspicion is that every month 21st Century tops up the Revelation Foundation by what is needed. This is based on the transcript between Doug Harris and Gordon Pettie where Gordon talks about how the accountant is even saying how strange it is that every month there is a pattern of always getting the same amount, which isn't normal.

Gordon attributed this to God, but sadly, it seems it's manipulation.

Anonymous said...

Yes, they said many times that Howard and Lesley were not getting paid or taking anything out of the charity on their fundraising programmes.

This explanation was put on the “About us” section of the Revelation TV website for ages… I have capitalised the important parts. I was informed by another person “in the know” that Howard and Lesley had recovered all of their initial investment within the first year because Revelation TV was so successful. In other words there was NO AMOUNT OF INVESTMENT THAT WAS “WRITTEN OFF.”

**********
Howard Conder, Revelation TV’s Founder is the most unlikely TV mogul you will ever find. He didn’t want to start a TV station and tried his hardest not to do so. He even took his family to America and planned to emigrate there and start a new business to move away from the UK. But in America he could not get away from the idea that he had a calling from God to start a new TV channel, to reach out across Europe. However hard he tried, the idea would not leave him.

Howard and Lesley began the TV station by forming a private company and remortgaging their home to put their own money into it. They could easily have retained ownership of the Revelation TV station for themselves AND REAPED THE BENEFIT OF IT FINANCIALLY IN THE YEARS TO COME. BUT INSTEAD THEY HANDED IT ALL OVER TO THE REGISTERED CHARITY REVELATION FOUNDATION AND WROTE OFF THEIR INITIAL INVESTMENT. Money was not their reason for starting the channel and never has been.

Today the channel broadcasts to millions of households in the UK and Europe via SKY, also the USA and worldwide via the Roku Box and the internet, with viewers stretching as far as Australia and New Zealand.

The TV station and all that happens at Revelation TV is in the hands of the registered UK charity, Revelation Foundation. HOWARD AND LESLEY ARE NOT EVEN TRUSTEES OF THE CHARITY AND RECEIVE NO BENEFIT FROM IT. In February 2013 the channel celebrated 10 years of Christian broadcasting and is living proof that God is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all we could ever think or imagine (Ephesians - 3:20)
**********

Treena Gisborn said...

I notice that RTV are airing "Time for Revelation" tonight at 9pm:

"The Revelation team are looking forward to sharing news of the TV station, and especially the finances of the Channel - both the budgeted expenditure for the year, and the month by month income. An update will also be given on the Building Fund appeal."

I wonder if they will mention 21st Century TV and the money the Conders are making from the channel!!!

Sarah Acott said...

Hi Anonymous

I wasn’t aware the Conders had recouped their initial investment so quickly, although the budgets for TV broadcasting are generally so large that the £150k they put in was perhaps 25% of their annual turnover.

Your copy of the “About” section of the site sums the situation up very well. Sadly, all the talk of transparency and sacrifice is not genuine.

I will say this though, the early days were tough. There were so many times that we were nearly out of money and after Howard fired the office staff there were only five of us including Howard and Lesley. It was hard and the Conders should have financial reward for the struggle, just not by being deceptive.

A Different Anonymous said...

Hello Anonynous,

I don't know when they made that statement on their web site, but just to clarify Lesley Conder IS a trustee of the Revelation Foundation. Howard Conder also was, between 2004 and 2010.

There have only been three years when neither of them was a trustee (2010-2012).

Treena Gisborn said...

Thank you anon - You are right:

Trustees
GORDON PETTIE, MR PETER DARG, MR ALAN TUN, JOHN ODELL, DR RICHARD KENT, MRS LESLEY ANN CONDER, MR JOEL CONDER, MRS LORNA PETTIE

http://opencharities.org/charities/1100573

Sarah Acott said...

Regarding trustees... Alan Tun stepped down from his position as trustee when he took on his current role at the station.

The Charity Commission are aware of this, but the data on the internet is outdated.

I did actually have a call from Alan last night. He gave me dates that Howard will be in the UK, but it isn't until mid June.

Howard will still not read my emails, however apparently he is willing to meet me. Gordon Pettie will also be present at any meeting.

If I can get there I will, but with Howard being unwilling to read my emails, it doesn't seem hopeful that there will be an open heart.

I will keep you all up to date with things both here and on my blog

https://godvschristianity.wordpress.com/

Treena Gisborn said...


Thank you Sarah - it is good that you have put everything in your own words and started a blog.

I would advise you to be very careful about meeting with Conder and Pettie. I would definitely not meet them on your own as you will need support and a witness.

I would also be careful with Alan Tun - if he is a man of God, he is riding in Ahab's Chariot i.e. he appears on the same channel as the false teachers and by doing so he is condoning them - he will get burnt sooner or later! “Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD?" 2 Chronicles 19/2.

On the link: http://opencharities.org/charities/1100573 It says it was last updated: 10 April 2015 which is why I thought it was current.

I shall be praying for you Sarah. Be careful and God bless tx

Sarah Acott said...

Thanks Treena

If I do meet them, I will probably ask that I can record the conversation. I will do this in a context that I don’t want to be misquoted and will allow them also to record the conversation for their protection too. However, the meeting can be off record if they wish to have a serious heart to heart (still recorded for my protection, but unpublished if they play by the rules). I think this would be reasonable under the circumstances, as Howard has already put words into my mouth with his Facebook post.

Regarding Alan Tun, I am very much aware of what you are saying. He has been balanced and fair in his manner with me, but ultimately, he is working for those who are doing wrong.

Alan hasn’t been a trustee since his return to the UK. I’m surprised the info says 10th April. It might just be that the main reports cover a year period and additional updates don’t get published until the new reports are filed. He was very clear with me he gave up his position due to potential conflict of interest.

Thanks for the prayers Treena, really appreciate it.

Treena Gisborn said...


Sarah I have a few further thoughts now after praying about the proposed meeting between yourself and Conder/Pettie.

What do they hope to acheive from a meeting? We already know that they cannot be trusted about finances, this indicates that they will not "play by the rules" with you either. If they had publicly repented then I would say yes, meet them, but there is no repentance. Is the only reason they want to meet you to get you to withdraw your blog and get some sort of public resolution so that they can save face?

"As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him..." Titus 3/10

You have done the right thing by separating yourself and exposing them:

"Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them."

"Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you....." (2 Corinthians 6/17)

"Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, 'Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues'" Revelation 18/4)

God bless tx

Sarah Acott said...

Hi Treena

Sorry for the delay, yesterday ended up rather a busy one. I've had exactly the same advice from Rob and Louis on my blog too. I completely agree with all that you are saying.

I did ask Alan when he called what had changed? He couldn’t really give me an answer. My response to him was that I would think on it, but from the sound of it, we are all on the same page.

Unless Howard is ready to change or at least apologise for the lies he wrote about myself and my family, there is little that a meeting will do. If they wished to explain themselves, they could have done that by now.

I will echo our collective concerns to Alan. My personal feeling is that they know I haven’t pushed this that far in the media yet and they probably hope that a future meeting date will keep things on hold.