Search This Blog

Saturday, 6 April 2019


Below is a very brief response to Joshua Chavez and his latest attempt to ridicule and defame those who have taken a stand against Jacob Prasch.

Is Jacob Prasch Really Under Investigation?

I will only address the ad hominem attack aimed directly against myself.

Chavez: "Pat and Treena both contacted Jacob several years ago asking him baiting questions about women teachers." I have never contacted Prasch about women teachers! I did have direct contact with Moriel Ministries when I questioned them about Prasch's dubious intra-seal theory back in 2016! I communicated directly with Elon Moleh of Moriel Israel at that time:

Hi Treena,

Jacob's mobility is somewhat restricted at the moment, but he is more than happy to meet you face to face to discuss your concerns, as he can see that they are honest questions. I have copied him in on this e-mail, so if you wish to arrange between yourselves a meeting? His e-mail address should show up above. I will leave it to the two of you to arrange the details.


After exchanging a couple more emails with Elon, the suggested meeting came to nothing, due to the fact that I had reservations about meeting Prasch in London face to face. I can provide copies of these emails for anyone who is interested. After those emails, I left a question on a YouTube video of David Nathan's about Prasch's intra-seal rapture theory. The response that came back directly from Prasch was very abusive. It was at that point that I began seriously challenging intra-seal, not as an "obsession" as you claim, but as a matter of serious concern that Prasch was not the teacher he claimed to be.

Regarding the Rome Statute

Joshua Chavez: "She also cites the Rome Statute as some law that affords her protection. The Rome Statute is a treaty that established an international criminal court to prosecute things like genocide and crimes against humanity. Treena Gisborn apparently thinks so highly of herself that anyone that would dare to “violate her privacy” would be on par with someone guilty of genocide. This is either supreme narcissism or delusion.."

I do realise what the Rome Statute is about Joshua. I believed that the statement, which was forwarded to me, would give me some protection from Facebook and its associates using my information unethically or as "hate speech" at some future point. However it seems that this is not the case after all. I do not consider a breach of my privacy on a par with someone guilty of genocide - this is a ridiculous accusation! According to Snopes, it appears that statements like these are useless actually, so I must thank you for drawing attention to my error. {1} I have now removed the statement from my FB page.

Incidentally, Moriel Israel must also be under the same "delusion" since they also cite the Rome Statute!!!

The Guardian recently reported an example of Facebooks breach under the Data Protection Act: "Revealed 50 million Facebook profiles harvested for Cambridge Analytica in major data breach. “Facebook has failed to provide the kind of protections they are required to under the Data Protection Act,” said Elizabeth Denham, the information commissioner. ... The £500,000 cap was set by the Data Protection Act 1998." {2} This is an issue I think we should all be concerned about.

One of my FB friends, Carol Dunderdale, posted the comment: "Hope your OK Treena not upset xx".  I am pretty sure that this comment has been taken out of context and pasted separately underneath my Rome Statute post. I remember Carol being concerned about my health at one point because I suffer from osteoarthritis. If you had read the whole conversation, which I am sure you did, you would have realised what this comment related to. Nevertheless you chose to use it to defame me. This kind of dishonesty does you no favours Joshua! (Proverbs 11:3).

Carol Dunderdale's confirmation: "I also think it was when you weren't feeling well Treena, positively not anything to do with the Rome Statute which I have never heard of. The original comment to yourself needs to be found and he needs to be challenged on the use of it without our permission which you may be able to do as I have never heard of him either. Talk tomorrow, keep smiling. Roy & Carol."

Am I a feminist? Most definitely not! I have stated previously that I believe that church leadership should be male and that women should not have authority over men. (1 Timothy 2:12). Nevertheless, I do object to Prasch cutting and pasting various New Testament passages and making up his own rules about what women can and cannot do within the congregation. My post on this subject illustrates that God can and does use women as well as men, Deborah being the most obvious example:

The Gagging of the Sisters 

Both yourself and Prasch have played the "Jezebel" card too often! It is nothing more than a smoke screen in order to deflect attention from the main issue i.e. Prasch's false teaching and dishonesty!

I am sorry you don't like my photo! I admit to looking serious, but I wouldn't say that I was "scowling". I am not photogenic, but I didn't think it was about outward appearance! (1 Samuel 16:7; 2 Corinthians 5:7. 10:7).

Joshua, there is something seriously wrong here. I suggest you concentrate your efforts on the theological issues associated with Prasch's scripture twisting and his abusive behaviour towards others, rather than maligning those who are exposing his lack of integrity! If this is the best you can do to defame myself and others then it is very miserable attempt.

1. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/facebook-posts-made-public/


  1. Joshua raises some very valid points in regard to Graham Baldwin's "Catalyst". On your original post in December 2018 I also raised some concerns about him. Mr Chavez has obviously put research into Baldwin, nevertheless, this is only a diversion, the subject matter is Jacob Prasch and Moriel; his finances, behaviour, and lastly his warped theology. I put his theology as least in importance because sincerely I don't believe his followers care what he teaches! The numbers speak their own story, and as for Prasch's behaviour, it falls woefully short of what one would expect from a Christian, let alone a teacher! then, maybe some think his antics are acceptable?

    Chavez is correct regarding the definition of a cult, but that doesn't mean to say that there aren't any deluded souls out there influenced by Prasch for the worse?

    If Chavez wants to launch an investigation into Baldwin, all well and good! I have had enough with so-called 'Christian' charities!

    I don't understand this "feminist" charge, for I am not aware that you or Mrs Rogers have have fallen short on any biblical injunctions on this? Certainly, you are at liberty, as any other woman is to write and comment on Scriptural subjects. Even back in the Victorian era there were women writing on biblical topics, though vastly outnumbered by men.

    God bless.

  2. Hi Treena,
    I agree with Colin that in the internet age, cultic activity and influence goes beyond the traditional definition of a cult.
    For a person who often complaons that his detractors make personal attacks (eg. regarding his tattoo etc.) which have nothing to do with the issue under debate, Joshua makes a number of personal insults against you and others which is, ill-mannered, ungodly and blatantly hypocritical.
    I am beginning to wonder about the genuineness and emotional maturity of Christians in this category. I would also be interested to hear Tim Wirth's side of the story. It seems unnecessary to bring him into this as frim what I can gather he has said little beyond being glad to have jumped the sinking Moriel ship. My guess is he would have some interesting input as a former insider and the accusations levelled towards him may bring some unwanted disclosures.
    I think regardless of the sound teaching and warnings against error that Moriel has dispensed in the past, any discerning Christian will be keeping light years away from this ministry. My best to you, Mike

  3. Though I have my own issues with Prasch's theology, I think they are quite subtle. My main issue is with his tricky Midrash and how he makes giant leaps with things that may or may not be correct, he then becomes dogmatic about it. On the timing of the rapture, I read Treena's book and it is well written. But that is not a make or break issue for me, if it is pre post mid or near the end of the 7 years, I am not going to get dogmatic about that. What other issues do you guys have with his theology Colin and Treena?

  4. My problem with Prasch's teaching is his eschatology Anonymous. His teaching about the Omer is incorrect and his rules about women teachers seem to be designed to tie us in knots.. According to Prasch "Women can disseminate information but they cannot teach.." Pat Rogers' article is very good: https://closingstages.net/2016/10/04/another-warning-shot-to-those-who-will-hear-run-from-jacob-praschs-error/

    Prasch's abusive behaviour also violates the scriptures and is therefore a doctrinal matter.
    I agree with you about Midrash but I haven't tackled that subject myself.

    God bless.

  5. Thank you Colin and Mike.

    Chavez's post says more about himself than the people he has attempted to publicly humiliate!

    I will leave it up to others to respond or not as they feel led.

    I agree that many of Prasch's followers do not appear care what he teaches Colin. Moriel is based on the personality of Prasch rather than on sound doctrine, and in this respect it is CULTISH.

    God bless.

  6. Treena,
    Yes, the traditional norms defining a cult have changed in today's "internet age" as Mike calls it. How many people have committed suicide and been led astray in all areas as a result of what they have watched on you-tube and such like? Take for example that last video of Frank Rogers, Prasch quite 'innocently' says he "can take a love offering if somebody gives it, but I can't ask for it." Yet, WHAT did he just DO? How many folks sent their "love offerings" to him, because he doesn't take a salary?

    These personal insults have no place in any of these dialogues, and using "Ahab" and "Jezebel" to put down folk is becoming a tad tedious, but it is obviously approved by Moriel and certain supporters.

    Regarding your anonymous contributor, I should think there is more than enough information in your 58 articles about Moriel/Prasch to put him in the right direction here, for I haven't the space or time right now to write a treatise on it all! As for midrash, as I understand it, it is biblical (Nehemiah 8:8); a Jewish interpretation or commentary expounding a biblical text, Dr John Gill did this back in the 18th century quoting many early rabbis, nothing new here! Prasch is perhaps guilty of giving midrash a bad name - maybe he should try and midrash his way out of the hole he has dug for himself!

    God bless

  7. For someone who doesn't take a salary, Prasch is doing very well indeed Colin! Do those who have given him a "love offering" realise how much he makes?

    The repeated Jezebel/Ahab accusations are completely out of context and are slanderous. Jezebel is linked to Baal worship and polytheism!

    "When Jezebel came to Israel, she brought her foreign gods and goddesses—especially Baal and his consort Asherah (Canaanite Astarte, often translated in the Bible as “sacred post”)—with her. This seems to have an immediate effect on her new husband, for just as soon as the queen is introduced, we are told that Ahab builds a sanctuary for Baal in the very heart of Israel, within his capital city of Samaria: “He took as wife Jezebel daughter of King Ethbaal of the Phoenicians, and he went and served Baal and worshiped him. He erected an altar to Baal in the temple of Baal which he built in Samaria. Ahab also made a ‘sacred post’”a (1 Kings 16:31–33).2
    Jezebel did not accept Ahab’s God, Yahweh. Rather, she led Ahab to tolerate Baal."


    "But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols." Revelation 2:20.

    God bless.

  8. ..and on it goes:

    Jacob Prasch exposed part (5) - "Stupid is as Stupid Does"

  9. Was there ever a more wicked woman than Jezebel??? I don't believe the Bible says so?

    For a man who KNOWS exactly what the biblical Jezebel said and did; to call any woman such a name (especially a professing Christian) is, well, beyond my comprehension! She was fed to the dogs! Certainly, we can overlook it coming from someone ignorant of the Scriptures, but Prasch? But, why even call people names at all? we can say they are deceived, or that what they are teaching is witchcraft or whatever, when we show them from the Word, but to stoop to such name-calling! Did this name-calling practice originate with Prasch? or who influenced him? was he at it before the 2012 DTW debacle? There was a strange name-calling incident in 2 Kings 2:22-24, and look at the fate of the name callers! really quite solemn.
    Words really do have power; "Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof." Proverbs 18:21.

    When folk in the 'safety' of their own home enter you-tube land, Facebook, or whatever, what dangers they are exposed to when they listen to diatribes such as Prasch gives out! and lets not forget, by no means can he be the worst out there, as anonymous says, he is "quite subtle", as he was considered orthodox by many (and still is!). Can all this multi-channel internet TV ever be regulated? cult leaders are probably having a field day out there today! (2 Tim.1-3).

    God bless.

  10. I have just watched Part 4 of Frank Rogers expose' of Jacob Prasch which I somehow overlooked previously. This video gives some interesting details about Prasch's history.


    Frank Rogers comment:

    "The BOTTOM line of why I ever got involved in the first place. After doing hours of research on the situation, and being a PRASCH fan. I realized PRASCH told many lies. He lied to hide his own rashness in judging others. He lied to cover that lie, and to cover each additional lie until he got in too deep. Then to save face he had to just keep lying. Some of the lies are subtle and others are not but the man has been very dishonest. Ofcourse to begin with many of us took issue with David Nathan's statement on the millennium and his statement about Jesus as creator though both were partially taken out of context. THE PROBLEM WAS NEVER ABOUT DEFENDING DAVID'S Doctrine. IT WAS ABOUT JACOB'S LYING AND PUBLIC SHAMING OF SO MANY PEOPLE. The Menelaws obviously just wanted to give David the human respect he deserved to speak for himself fairly and opening that was it! They defended no heresy only gave him a platform to speak. Then Prasch had to character assassinate them, as well as Sally, as well as IFB, as well as ANYONE else who dared to question Prasch's Rage. let it be known this is about Jacob's lying and his inability to humbly speak to people and stop publicly shaming people, threatening them, declaring war on them, and learn to ACT LIKE A CHRISTIAN!! You can be the smartest eschatological genius but "IF YOU HAVE NOT LOVE YOU ARE NOTHING" Jacob treats people like dogs when he is angry and scripture is quite clear on how serious that is. So go and keep teaching everyone how to discover the Antichrist what about the brothers right in front of you?"

    God bless.

  11. Two new players have been brought into the mix:
    Jackie Alnor (Rapture Ready Radio) and Danny Isom a formal member of Moriel Ministries.

    Jackie Alnor thinks that she has the "female authority" to say to everyone involved "Enough is Enough" and "stop it". I might add that not too long ago Jackie Alnor was praising ecumenist Billy Graham with Prasch's full endorsement! Jackie Alnor is a rabid pre-trib rapture promoter, so I don't think I will be paying much attention to her opinions.

    Danny Isom is either a past or present formal member of Moriel Ministries and has written something of a sermon on the subject.


  12. Isom and Alnor have it completely right.

    Every single person involved in this is irrevocably tainted by their own conduct. Every single person.

    I no longer trust nor would listen to any of them. In fact I would studiously avoid them and I do.

    I'm not the only one. Privately a great number, the silent majority, feel the same. Why silent? Because no one wants to be subject to the same treatment they (and their henchmen/women) dish out to each other, or to anyone who dares to disagree.

    I'm with Isom - lets unfollow them all and forget about them.

    I'm with Alnor - IF you are the men and women of God you say you are then knock it off and sort it out behind closed doors as befits your heavenly status. IF.

  13. I disagree Anonymous.

    Danny Isom wrote the overview and edited Prasch's book 'Harpazo', and Jackie Alnor is a long time friend of his. We believe that their statements were orchestrated by Prasch as yet another attempt to draw attention away from himself and to blame shift.

    I suggest you seriously consider Stewart Menelaws' message to the church. https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/2019/04/a-message-to-church-from-stewart.html

    God bless.


  15. Alnor has lost the plot!
    God bless.

  16. Going by recent events, it is clear Mr. Prasch and his deluded supporters do not think 'enough is enough'! In one of the recent videos by tbckhawaii on vimeo I was stunned to hear JP slandering Jan Markell (along with Deborah Menolaws), naming her a 'Jezebel' for - apparently-supporting a teacher he does not like. I may not always agree with Jan, but she is a godly woman warning the church about false teachers, as you do Treena. It obviously doesn't take much to become a victim of JP's ungodly and engentlemanly rage.
    Sadly, the heresy and ungodly behaviour in the discernment camp is as bad as anywhere else. What a sad witness, especially to those coming out of deception. These are surely the last of the last days. My best Mike

  17. Prasch throws around the "Jezebel" slur liberally! I will never agree with the pre-trib teachers. I find that I cannot not listen to Jan Markell as she never strays far from the subject. Nevertheless to abuse her in this way is highly offensive!
    God bless.

  18. Interesting that Danny goes to Devore Church where a paid employee of Moriel.Marco Quintana

    From the Moriel website. Moriel & Jacob Prasch welcome pastor Marco Quintanna as Senior Trustee of Moriel USA.
    Marco has been a pastor of a Moriel affiliated church in Devore, California for some time and an Advisory Counsel Member. Marco will be overseeing both the USA and Moriel's Spanish language ministry. Marco's tenure commenced formally May 1st, 2018. This has been a major step in faith for Pastor Marco & his family, for Devore Church, and for Moriel financially as Marco has left his secular position in logistics management to launch into full time ministry due to the growth and demands of time.

    Interesting that Marco has made a video defending Jacob's character but fails to mention that he is an employee of Moriel.
    Doesn't that show a lack of character on the part of Marco?
    Is Devore Truth just an oxymoron?

    Marco basically just repeats himself and to sum it up to states you should like Jacob because I do.
    One of Marco's points was laughable because Marco uses the phrase "substance abuse" which to me is usually about drugs when the real issue was about Jacob drinking Jack Daniels etc..
    Everyone around Jacob knows his love for Jack Danials this is hardly a revelation to any who have been around him for any amount of time.
    With Jacobs health problems and the meds he takes for those problems should he be drinking at all?

    Isn't Danny Isom a member of this church?

    Will Danny unfollow his own church as he suggests to unfollow Jacob?

    They are both connected and Devore as a church has continued to defend Jacob Prasch putting even logic aside.
    If this is not The Emperors New Clothes saga what is?


  19. Yes and he is holding a teaching weekend at Devore Truth this weekend!!!
    Sat April 13th - Sun 14th, 2019.
    Jacob Prasch - Community Church of Devore 1431 Devore Road, San Bernardino, CA 92407

    I am not sure whether Danny Isom attends Devore Truth? but he has certainly been a speaker there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm3-eIyQ9bo

    None of them are prepared to address the theological problems and real issues!

    God bless.

  20. Another question that is really not asked is does James (Jimmy) Prasch truly have Jewish ancestry in his family?
    Jacobs mother was a faithful Roman Catholic and his father James Prasch SR was of no apparent faith at all.
    Jimmy's mom and dad would have been married in a Roman Catholic Church and a priest back in those days would never have married a Roman Catholic to a Jewish man.
    Now James wife Pavia is for sure Jewish so maybe after James married Pavia he adopted the Jewish faith and then eventually both James and Pavia would convert to Christianity.
    Jacobs real name is listed here on his mom's obituary.
    Maureen A. Prasch (Nee:Connors)

    Lakewood - Maureen A. Prasch (Nee:Connors); 86, passed away peacefully on Saturday, April 28th at the Center for Hope Hospice in Elizabeth, NJ, surrounded by her loving family.

    Maureen was born and raised in Bayonne, NJ. She moved to Highlands, NJ where she lived until her retirement in 1989. Before eventually settling in Lakewood, NJ, she spent her early retired years extensively travelling the U.S. and lived briefly on Whidbey Island in Washington State, and in Venice, Hollywood Beach and West Palm Beach, FL.

    She was a retired Scheduler for NY and NJ Port Authority for over 21 years. She loved New York City and spent much of her free time there enjoying it. She was a patriotic American who bore a deep love for her Irish heritage. She travelled to Ireland many times and was an avid fan of its music, dance and literary culture.

    Beloved Mother of James A. Prasch, Jr., Theresa Prasch Ward, Robert C. Prasch, & Sandra O'Connor Carey. Devoted Grandmother of Beth Miel, Eli Prasch, Kieran Prasch, Ashlyn Ward & Rhiannon O'Connor. Adoring Great-Grandmother of Joshua Miel. Loving Sister of Catherine Connors and the late Michael, Charles, Brian, Francis, and Cornelius Connors, Theresa Boyle, Anne Halecki, and Margaret Carstens. Dear Sister-In-Law of Peter Halecki. She is also survived by many Nieces & Nephews.

    Relatives and friends are invited to attend the Viewing on Wednesday, May 2nd from

    4 - 8 PM at the G. Keenen O'Brien Funeral Home, 984 Avenue C, Bayonne. A Funeral Mass will be offered on Thursday, May 3rd at 11 AM at St. Vincent's Church. Private Cremation.
    Published in Asbury Park Press on May 1, 2018

    So Jacob maybe adopted the name Jacob so he could be called Yacov and sell himself as a Jewish American teacher?
    Again keeping in mind his wife Pavia is very smart and teaches Hebrew and Mathematics in the UK where Jimmy still lives.
    Jimmy is a citizen of the UK not of American and has no American address unless you include David Listers address where Jimmy will stay on occasion.

    Interesting the bag of goods people have been sold for decades.
    Jimmy has always been an angry person.
    I hope he gets better

  21. That is the million dollar question anonymous.
    God bless.


  22. Tim Wirth
    April 9 at 7:00 AM
    Lots of ugly rumors and gossip going around. Please keep in mind there is always 2 sides to every story.
    I sought out godly council from 2 godly men who I am accountable too and 1 godly woman.
    Sometimes even if you engage the other side thinks then they have to hit you back and it goes on forever as we see.
    Even if proof is shown that is spun into a different narrative so I'm just not going to engage. And the advice of godly council was to just let it go.
    I read my bible every morning before I get Donna up to feed her breakfast. I read the Devotional Daily Bible NASB because you get to read through the bible in a year and I like that. It gives you and Old Testament verse, a Psalm, a Proverb and a New Testament verse. Here is what I read first thing today. Psalm 43:1-5
    Vindicate me, O God, and plead my case against an ungodly nation;
    O deliver me from the deceitful and unjust man!
    2 For You are the God of my strength; why have You rejected me?
    Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?
    3 O send out Your light and Your truth, let them lead me;
    Let them bring me to Your holy hill
    And to Your dwelling places.
    4 Then I will go to the altar of God,
    To God my exceeding joy;
    And upon the lyre I shall praise You, O God, my God.
    5 Why are you in despair, O my soul?
    And why are you disturbed within me?
    Hope in God, for I shall again praise Him,
    The help of my countenance and my God.
    I really almost laughed and for sure smiled ear to ear (not in dis-respect toward scripture) but I believe it was God through His Word letting me know He is still with me.

    At the end of the verses there is always has a thought to think about. The thought was based on Luke 9:61 and it states "One of the saddest aspects in the Christian community involves those spiritual leaders who, after perhaps years of effective service toward God, allow sin to drive them away from their ministries. It may be a pastor, an elder ,a deacon, a Sunday school worker, or a missionary. The sad results are the same. Testimonies are ruined, the faith of others may be weakened, and the cause of Christ suffers. What causes them to "look back" after once putting their hand to the plow? Several reasons can be given. First the individual can become careless, forgetting that their sinful nature can destroy his testimony, apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Even the apostle Paul expressed his awareness of this potential danger. (1 Cor. 9:26,27). Second carelessness usually leads to prayerlessness. When we do not pray we do not receive. (James 4:2). Third daily Bible study is neglected by the erring one. The Bible is used to beat people up with and make ourselves correct a spiritual fall is inevitable. However it must be remembered that God is the God of the second chance. Both Jonah (Jon 3:1) and John Mark (compare Acts 13:13 with 2 Tim 4:11) experienced God's forgiveness and restoration. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; a good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever.-End of lesson.
    I just want to say I have never considered myself a victim because my wife Donna has Alzheimer's. And I do not look for pity just prayer. I thank God that He has given me the strength to be Donna's caregiver. I made Donna a promise at the altar and I will keep it. I know many of you pray for us and I appreciate that. I think the above is a good warning to anyone and everyone. Blessings in Jesus-Tim.

  23. As a point of reference the above was from Tim Wirth's public Facebook ministry page "The Simply Agape Project. For Mike Evans

  24. Thank you for your eye opening research Treena. Our prayers are for Tim Wirth and all others who appear to be the victim of bullies in the pulpits. I saw the comment about some new names involved. Jackie Alnor has no authority to hush the church members, Seriously, to my knowledge she is not a big name or known very well over here. I believe She gives Moriel members a platform with some kind of pod cast interviews. I have heard her a few times and she teaches and I think she gives some other female pastor a platform. It appears things are a double standard with Moriel anymore. I am also not comfortable with the promotion and protection of B. Graham with these ministries. Too much Catholicism in the Protestant Church.
    I am pleased to say we are seeing a rise in good young apologists in the states. So very important in these times.
    Thanks again for top notch research , it helps to have the information to make appropriate decisions.

  25. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbzRkgEteD4&app=desktop